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A commercial and Idea
March 15, 2011
6:15 am
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Marty
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Okay, so with everything going on in Japan I had an Idea. What if we as a general group went as green as possible and took our shops, if nothing else off the grid so to speak. I have a website devoted to green living ideas such as solar, wind, and alternative sources. The site is (here is the commercial part) http://greenlife.steel-ace.com

However, there is some truth in what I say, I think if we took our shops off the grid it would be an interesting thought.

Keep on Forgin

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
Albert Einstein

March 15, 2011
7:02 pm
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Lee Cordochorea
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Planning on micro-hydro myself. A wee 1/2hp generator will provide more than 8kWh per day. :happy:

We've alredy got a 4kW backup diesel generator in process of conversion to bio-diesel. And a tertiary 2kW gas generator. Just in case.

No matter where you go... there you are.

March 15, 2011
7:55 pm
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David Kunkler
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Marty;8591 wrote: I have a website devoted to green living ideas such as solar, wind, and alternative sources. The site is (here is the commercial part) http://greenlife.steel-ace.com .

It looks like the links for alternative power sources take you to some scams, like the Magniwork perpetual motion generator and phone4energy which steals a few milliamps from your phone line.

March 15, 2011
8:08 pm
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Marty
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David Kunkler;8607 wrote: It looks like the links for alternative power sources take you to some scams, like the Magniwork perpetual motion generator and phone4energy which steals a few milliamps from your phone line.

I don't know enough about those areas, however I thought it was a good idea to put them there for people that wanted the information.. BUT, the others are good info. I personally am working on getting the parts for a wind generator.

Keep on Forgin

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
Albert Einstein

March 15, 2011
8:33 pm
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David Kunkler
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Marty;8608 wrote: I don't know enough about those areas, however I thought it was a good idea to put them there for people that wanted the information.. BUT, the others are good info. I personally am working on getting the parts for a wind generator.

I hope you do good with the wind generator and keep your expectations realistic. A lot of these outfits are snake oil salemen trying to make a quick buck, I just don't want to see someone being scammed.

March 15, 2011
8:55 pm
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Marty
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David Kunkler;8609 wrote: A lot of these outfits are snake oil salemen trying to make a quick buck, I just don't want to see someone being scammed.

That is the advantage of a 60 day money back guarantee, which they all have.

Keep on Forgin

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
Albert Einstein

March 15, 2011
10:35 pm
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Ries
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How much does a wind generator cost that will put out 200 amps of 3 phase?
(I actually have 400 amps, but I could probably skimp)

And how many hundreds of thousands will I have to spend on batteries?

In the end, there are some things that make sense to do as a community- and generating electric power is almost always one of them.
Off the grid electric power generally costs ten to fifty times the per kilowatt cost of commercially generated power, especially here in the northwest, where we have cheap hydro power.

I am all for being self sufficient, but generating power just wont work for me.
I burn wood to heat the shop, I grow a lot of the food I eat, I ride my bike, I compost and so on- but electricity? Uh uh.

March 16, 2011
1:28 am
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poleframer
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I've been off grid here since 92, I've discussed my scene in my intro a bit.
My hydro electric, and a couple solar panels provide plenty of power for the house, I do use compact florescent lights, all that, but use a microwave, and toaster oven, etc in the kitchen. I use propane for the stove and fridge, and a propane heater for my upstairs bedroom, and move to the cooler downstairs bedroom in the summer, use a small ac unit when it's too hot to sleep.
I have two battery banks, and inverters, one system for the house with 4 L16 batteries, and 8 L16s for the shop. The charge control is set up to prioritize the house system, so it is pretty much always charged.
Since I'm usually not home much from spring to fall, I only run an engine for the welder, or my bigger shop tools. In the winter tho (not much work happening then, and I save enough to get through) I'm in the shop a lot more and my RE energy dosnt cover it. My invertor will run grinders, drills, skilsaws, and any tool up to 1/2 hp no problem.
So my small bandsaw, woodlathe, tablesaw, and drill press are covered there, but for my 30"bandsaw, the lathe, 6x48 belt sander, press and power hammer run off the hydraulic pump on the diesel.
Sure, I'd be ahead to be on grid in a lot of ways, it's a pain to fire a diesel whenever I want to run the lathe or power hammer, and this winter I've been using about 15 gallons of diesel a week, and thats not even doing a whole lot of forging.
I would been on grid if the place came that way, and if you do some reading about going off grid to save money, that would be noble, but not as enviromentally friendly as just being more concious of how you use the energy you have. I think most of our energy problems are going to be solved by efficiency, rather than investing in more power sources. If the mainstream person was even half as efficient as most off griders, we would cut down on our dirty power production rapidly.
As has been noted, the batteries are the most toxic of an off grid system, especially if they arent properly cared for.
I have a great resource of knowledge in my nephew who is an electrical engineer at the Hyster R&D plant in troutdale. He designs electric forklifts, builds the controls, and has a great understanding of batteries. He recently built an electric pickup that he commutes in now.
I like the idea of making as much use of the resourses that are available, as in the water heater I have plumbed into my house woodstove, as long as there's a fire in it, I have 25gallons of hot water. When I get around to gardening the terraced area I made for a garden, I'll be well covered for the watering, as it is, the 25gpm outflow (24/7) from my hydro flows into a pond I dug, and lined next to my sauna,and will flow to the top of the garden area.
Coal isnt available around here, but I've found standing dead, dry madrone, or manzanita cut into fist sized chunks makes dandy forge fuel, the coals last quite a while, not as much ash as oak or other hardwoods. I havnt done the charcoal making routine, since this works for me. One thing I do have available around me is a lot of those trees to cut.
One idea that's been on my mind is doing a 10-15 hp steam engine in the shop, maybe as part of my forge, for additional electric production, and run a hydraulic pump. So when the forge is going, I'd have a live hydraulic system running off that.
Ok. I could be crazy, but its the only way I stay somewhat sane, and close enough to the edge for a view.
Any steam engine guys here?

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March 16, 2011
1:50 am
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Marty
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poleframer
I am impressed and very proud that you are not only doing your part, but doing it well...

thank you for your good words and help.

Keep on Forgin

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
Albert Einstein

March 16, 2011
2:19 am
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Ries
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My question, though, is if you are using more resources and materials to be off the grid than if you were plugged in, are you really doing your part?

There is such a thing as economy of scale, and I cant imagine that the cost, in either dollars or in steel, copper, lead, and diesel fuel, of running a diesel generator, isnt MORE than the cost of plugging into Bonneville.

As I said, I am all in favor of living light on the land, of wasting as little as possible, and not buying lots of cheap plastic crap at Walmart.

But for water, for example, its much more "green" for me to buy my water from the socialist water co-op I own a share of, along with 800 or so other people, than for me to drill my own well, run my own pump, and pay proportionately much more per gallon for worse water.

Same thing with electricity- I pay less, and make less impact, by buying it from a hydro power generating plant, than I would by investing a lot of money in relatively short lived solar panels, wind generators, and pricy batteries.

Grand Coulee, or Hoover Dams, were both built before WW2, and are still pumping out the kilowatts every day. Whats the oldest solar panel still working on earth- 20 years old?
Them things are not only expensive, they have a relatively short, finite lifespan.

There is plenty we can do to be responsible and moral- but kidding ourselves that just somehow being "independent" at a higher price, both in dollars and in resources, doesnt make sense to me.

And I havent seen any evidence that ANY small scale electrical generation isnt a resource hog, and very expensive to boot.

March 16, 2011
3:31 am
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N.W.B.A.
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Nice thing about being on the grid and producing your own it that the grid becomes your storage battery. Allows you to "bank" KWhrs when you're not using much and draw as much as you need at other times.

March 16, 2011
3:42 am
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poleframer
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Ries;8620 wrote: My question, though, is if you are using more resources and materials to be off the grid than if you were plugged in, are you really doing your part?

Uh, no. I dont uses more than most consumers in resources, largely because I live a pretty low level lifestyle, you'd laugh at my W2, I'm sub poverty level living quite comfortably. I do pay my share of taxes, both as an employee, and at a corporate level for the company I've run. I've had over 50 employees in the last 15 years, and have paid them well. I feel like I'm doing my part. oh, yea, property taxes too. I'm not a "survivalist" in camo out here.

There is such a thing as economy of scale, and I cant imagine that the cost, in either dollars or in steel, copper, lead, and diesel fuel, of running a diesel generator, isnt MORE than the cost of plugging into Bonneville.

Ah, got me there. As I said, if this property was hooked up, I'd be on grid. My move here was slow, first 5 years lived here was renting (cheap from my bro), the water system already in place. At this point no, the cost of diesel wouldnt be close to covering it along with bringing county inspectors upgrades that I cant afford (the way our contracts have been thinning out)

As I said, I am all in favor of living light on the land, of wasting as little as possible, and not buying lots of cheap plastic crap at Walmart.

But for water, for example, its much more "green" for me to buy my water from the socialist water co-op I own a share of, along with 800 or so other people, than for me to drill my own well, run my own pump, and pay proportionately much more per gallon for worse water.

For water I have a water right to a clear mountain stream above me.

Same thing with electricity- I pay less, and make less impact, by buying it from a hydro power generating plant, than I would by investing a lot of money in relatively short lived solar panels, wind generators, and pricy batteries.

I agree, you would.

Grand Coulee, or Hoover Dams, were both built before WW2, and are still pumping out the kilowatts every day. Whats the oldest solar panel still working on earth- 20 years old?
Them things are not only expensive, they have a relatively short, finite lifespan.

There is plenty we can do to be responsible and moral- but kidding ourselves that just somehow being "independent" at a higher price, both in dollars and in resources, doesnt make sense to me.

And I havent seen any evidence that ANY small scale electrical generation isnt a resource hog, and very expensive to boot.

Wow, you're really running me down, arent ya?

March 16, 2011
3:56 am
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Marty
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N.W.B.A.;8622 wrote: Nice thing about being on the grid and producing your own it that the grid becomes your storage battery. Allows you to "bank" KWhrs when you're not using much and draw as much as you need at other times.

Ah yes... the ole grid tie method ... definately a good way to go..

Keep on Forgin

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.
Albert Einstein

March 16, 2011
4:12 am
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Lewis
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Poleframer, I don't think Ries's comment was directed at you. You plainly stated in your first post that you were doing things your way because that's what worked for you, not because you were trying to save energy.

I believe it was the OP who got his goat. (Mine as well, but it looks like a futile argument.) Ries is arguing with Marty about whether going off grid as some sort of environmental action has any point. I don't think your decision not to hook your isolated property to the grid has the same implications as Marty's suggestion that we unplug from the grid.

On a separate note, I don't think a steam engine would be very useful for a one man operation. To be more specific, I don't think a boiler could be used very effectively for a one man operation. Back in the day, keeping the boiler and engine fueled, watered and oiled was a full time job for at least one guy. So who would be left to run all the awesome steam driven equipment?

You might be able to set up electric controls, but that would take the fun out of it. :hot:

Lewis

March 16, 2011
4:30 am
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Lee Cordochorea
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Ries' comments on the financial aspects are, in general, in the right direction. Not universal, though. Local power company quoted me $9k to install grid power. I estimate $6K to do my own. Local power company charges $0.11 per kWh. I estimate well under $0.02 per kWh with replacing batteries every ten years and inverters every twenty. (Based on current costs, of course. Prices of both sources WILL go up.)

One may expect to pay around $0.22 per kWh with photovoltaic over a 20 year lifespan of the system. Wind can be even more pricey, or much less, depending on where one lives. This figure assumes government subsidy. Bend Oregon is good for solar - cold clear days in the winter. (Solar does better in the cold and more poorly in the heat.)

As for using the grid as a "battery," well... it stores pennies, not watt-hours. And if your inverter is not a bi-modal inverter, you go dark when the grid goes dark. Lots of folk get pissed off when they find this out. Bi-modal inverters cost more, of course. And if one wants to go grid-supplimental, one must of course be on-grid. Reference the $9K quote above.

Now if only the effin rain would stop long enough for grating and gravelling...

No matter where you go... there you are.

March 16, 2011
4:35 am
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Lee Cordochorea
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Oh, and if we're talking a professional shop... only a damn fool would go off-grid. One of Grant's smaller induction units would need about $9K worth of inverters.

No matter where you go... there you are.

March 16, 2011
5:32 am
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Rob F
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Lee Cordochorea;8626 wrote:

As for using the grid as a "battery," well... it stores pennies, not watt-hours.

Down in California when we have a grid tied system we also must be on TOU meters (time of use). When the sun is high running the meter backwards energy is put on the grid at peak prices and when used in a standard house it is usually during off peak hours and costs less to buy it from the grid. Sell @ 25 cents and buy at 11 cents. Or something close to that. Is that how it works up there as well? I am looking at about $11,000 for a 2kw system here. The panels I was looking at perform better with more heat, opposite the standard ones.

March 16, 2011
5:22 pm
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Ries
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I am not attacking either Marty or poleframer- I am talking about ME.

As I said, the shop power drops total 400 amps of 3 phase.
The house is another 200 amps- meaning my total maximum draw from the grid is 600 amps.
I dont use that much at any one time, of course, but nonetheless, for me, it would be totally impractical and fiendishly expensive to try to even produce half the power I have now off the grid.
If a 2000 watt power system costs $11,000, and thats about 10 amps, does that really mean it would cost me a half million dollars to generate as much power as I have now? And would that be single phase, or 3 phase?

My big motors are 7 1/2hp- my lathe and compressor are that big. Add 3 or 4 motors at 5hp, and another half dozen at 3hp, all 3 phase. The Syncrowave takes 100 amp breaker all by itself. I sometimes run two tig welders at the same time, the other one being an inverter that only draws 50 amps, plus the compressor and maybe one or two machines simultaneously. And thats not counting lights and heat in my various buildings.

The farmers around here are similar- 10 hp 3 phase motors are not at all uncommon in my "neighborhood", running various farm and dairy equipment.

So for me, it wouldnt fly.

I totally understand both the people who live places where its not practical, and the people who want to tread more lightly on the earth.

My point is just that, for most people, its not possible, and, if everybody did it, it would definitely cost more in every way.

Imagine if we all generated our own power- every single house- at current technology levels, the resource usage would be many times what a big power plant uses. Its a great fantasy, but, until we can make safe, small, cheap, fusion power plants that replace the furnace in your basement, its just a fantasy.

As I said- I think all the time about how I can use less, and make less of an impact. But sometimes that means working WITH everybody else, not alone.

Thats all I am trying to say.

March 16, 2011
6:21 pm
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Daryl
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I would never take my shop of grid, but if I was off grid I think I could get by. I don't think when it comes to be off grid there is a single magic bullet. It is looking at what you have and what you need and the best solution is a combination of several factors. Everything form natural lighting insulation, to the type of equipment you use. You might not have a plasma cutter but use a O/A torch.

I have a cabin property that I would like to build on and may at some point retire there. There is power and natural gas to the property and I have spent a bit of time thinking about what I might want. Our climate is cold and we tend to have snow on the ground from November/December until March/April. There has been a bit of experimenting with what they call Net Zero homes they produce the same amount of energy they use. They typically use an array of photovoltaic and solar panels for electricity and heat, passive solar design, super insulation, low energy appliances. They do not store power but feed back into the grid.

I don't think I would go with all the solar power as we have a very stable grid, but design with the option of doing so. What I do like is when modeling the cabin in a little computer program a friend had was how quick the payback was by going energy efficient construction, lighting, and appliances. Conservation by far is the biggest pay back, photovoltaic panels seem to be getting better and cheaper so why not wait on them if I don't need them and if I'm not living full time at the cabin why pay for what i don't use. I also want to build a shop on the property I haven't done any modeling but I think the same principals would apply. If I was off grid i might think of a combination of photovoltaic panels, wind and maybe a trailblazer welder. In any case there is always and answer, it just takes a bit of planning to see what you have, what you can do. I really liked the modeling program, a bit basic but great at finding all the bit you miss.

March 16, 2011
6:29 pm
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Here in Ontario they will pay considerably more for "green power". They are encouraging people and businesses to put in solar panels. I looked into it a few years ago. I checked into the panel prices online and once I calculated the amount of current that the panels would produce based on the annual sunlight factor for my location (information available on government websites) I found it would take 10 years just to pay for the panels. This did not include installation costs or the necessary inverter. To me that is way too long to not even break even especially when the estimated life of the panels is only 20 years.
For those who would have to spend a lot of money on hooking up to the grid like poleframer, the current technology makes sense. There are some large factories putting solar panels on their roofs but I am sure they are getting better pricing on the panels due to the quantity they are buying and I suspect much of what they are doing is a PR move. Hopefully the technology will improve and prices will come down for some of these products to make them viable.

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