Log In
Register
Home
Topic RSS
6:39 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
I actually voted for Jack, too, but mainly cause he has such good hair.
Anyway- I never said the word "quality".
Which is pretty objective, anyway-
I make the stuff I like, I dont claim "quality", or "authenticity", or anything else.
I made the scrolls I wanted to make, for the design I was working on. The machine made it quicker. Thats it.
The machine can take different types of ends- you can do whatever type of end you want, first, before scrolling. Some types may require a bit of customizing of the dies, but that is true with any scroll jig.
Hebo does make a power fish tail unit, for making the ends of scrolls- I dont have one.
Frankly, I seldom use scrolls. This particular fence was all scroll shapes, a graphic design based on the shape of a scroll. But it is not something I have done before or since, as, generally, scrolls dont excite me.
6:43 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline
Off topic. Did you do all the stainless people and fruit at the Auburn transit center Ries?
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:09 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
7:19 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
I don't think anyone is offended Jack, just differing opinions.
Actually, I pretty much agree with you. But they can be made to look good with nicely made fishtails and starting the scroll over the anvil. From there it's no different than hand winding them on a scroll form. But I've seen the ones you're talking about too, with the kink to pull them through the machine. You can make piles of ugly in a hurry, for sure.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
7:24 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
"Good design poorly executed is better than bad design well executed" - Dave Thompson-
Interesting. I've said as much, but never as eloquently. Most work is viewed from a distance, it's just blacksmiths who have to get up close and critique every detail.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
7:41 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
I am not a purist- but I am a craftsman, and I, too, check out every thing I see made from metal.
I think you need to be true to the technique, whatever it is- I think there is good, and bad, mig welding, for example.
Me, I dont fire up the mig welders often, sometimes I go a year or more without using em.
And I certainly enjoy forging, and try to include forging when I can. But I gotta make a living, and that means certain decisions are made based on time. My wife is already convinced I am WAAAY to far over on the side of doing things well, as opposed to making money.
Mostly, I use my Hebo as the worlds greatest power twister, and as such, it isnt doing anything I couldnt, theoretically, do myself, If I was younger and buffer.
Fer instance, these door pulls made from 1 1/4" round- I could have twisted em in the vise, with a huge twisting wrench. But the Hebo was a lot easier.
Same thing with the 1" stainless salad set- all those reverse twists in stainless are HARD.
7:54 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
Now that I think about it, "hand made" is no guarantee of quality either - I've seen some butt-ugly hand-made scrolls too. A well trained eye and competent craftsman should be able to use a machine to enhance and extend himself without giving up anything in the way of quality. I can see that it would be easy to "give in to the Dark Side" when most of the customers don't know or care.
In the end I guess it's just ourselves we have to satisfy. And even a big part of that is peer review. Which is probably a good thing.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
11:36 pm
August 14, 2010
Offline
jack frost;4875 wrote: It is a cheap way to fill space.
All scrolls are a cheap way to fill space. I fail to see how pulling a scroll around a form by hand is any better than pulling one around a form with a motor.
Back in the 13th century the smith Biscornet was accused of being in league with the devil for using swages to form the hinges for Notre Dame Cathedral. It's good to know some things never change.
12:19 am
March 22, 2010
Offline
Hebo is a town on HWY 101 in Oregon:happy::happy::happy:
12:27 am
NWBA Member
Board Member
April 26, 2010
Offline
Lewis;4895 wrote: Back in the 13th century the smith Biscornet was accused of being in league with the devil for using swages to form the hinges for Notre Dame Cathedral. It's good to know some things never change.
That's different. The angels on those hinges were far too identical to have been forged by human hands.
And if we can make components identical to one another, next we'll have things like rythm or unity showing up in our finished work. What happens to the art then? Hm?
No matter where you go... there you are.
3:14 am
NWBA Member
August 1, 2010
Offline
For perspective - many a hack has used a very expensive camera to make very feeble pictures. And many a skilled photographer has used those same very expensive cameras to make very powerful pictures. The camera isn't usually the deciding factor.
As for blacksmithing, there is usually a conflict between what artist smiths (or any other artist) would like to create, and what can be sold in the market.
Sometimes it's about taste. Sometimes it's about money. But it is reality.
(And I *think* Jack makes a good point about smithing being about more than knives, hatchets, fences, and railings. If that isn't what he meant, I'll argue it's a good point anyway. So the real question is not so much "are Hebos an honorable way to make scrolls for gates" but rather "why is the market so focused on gates, fences, and railings?")
3:43 am
August 23, 2010
Offline
Very enjoyable thread, lots of good stuff, Thank you Ries.
4:19 am
Gene C;4898 wrote: Hebo is a town on HWY 101 in Oregon:happy::happy::happy:
]
Yeah, but the diner closed years ago. Stopped in for a burger once on a trip south. Two stools per person.
Quite the sight.
JE
4:23 am
Ries;4892 wrote: I am not a purist- but I am a craftsman, and I, too, check out every thing I see made from metal.
I think you need to be true to the technique, whatever it is- I think there is good, and bad, mig welding, for example.Me, I dont fire up the mig welders often, sometimes I go a year or more without using em.
And I certainly enjoy forging, and try to include forging when I can. But I gotta make a living, and that means certain decisions are made based on time. My wife is already convinced I am WAAAY to far over on the side of doing things well, as opposed to making money.
Mostly, I use my Hebo as the worlds greatest power twister, and as such, it isnt doing anything I couldnt, theoretically, do myself, If I was younger and buffer.
Fer instance, these door pulls made from 1 1/4" round- I could have twisted em in the vise, with a huge twisting wrench. But the Hebo was a lot easier.
Same thing with the 1" stainless salad set- all those reverse twists in stainless are HARD.
Really nice work. A lot of innovation. Your work is impressive. Congrats!
JE
6:26 am
NWBA Member
April 19, 2010
Offline
They that work with their hands are called laborers
They that work with their hands and head are called craftsmen
They that work with their hands and head and heart are called artists
[RIGHT]-St, Francis of Assisi
[/RIGHT]8:22 am
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
Offline
Glad to hear you are bringing the Hebo to the conference Reis. I do not know if you remember doing some test twisting on titanium for me years ago but that machine twisted a cold bar of 1.5" titanium in half. Lots of torque and very impressive.
I have always believed that you can equip anyone with the best equipment in the world but it still takes a trained eye, desire and talent to make them perform to their full potential. We do not blame welding machines for poor welds, its more often than not operator error. From what I have seen Reis can and has produced some fine iron with the Hebo. Any successful business is about profit and equipment that creates that is always good. On the plus side we are not mass production shops and this allows us to experiment and play with these type of tools to create higher quality products and techniques that the engineers behind these tools never envisioned.
Tom
3:57 pm
lol yep they are power benders.
they will make it quicker. and what a shame we don't have more people employed in this profession.
I can see they have a use. but I can say I'd find them too expensive in the first place so I will carry on without.
I will enjoy the conference and being able to see the better made scrolls that we don't see on hebo website. ( I do believe you all I just am waiting to see with my own eyes.)
I do get economic realities, believe me, I work with the minimum I can get away with (ie all I have) but again I have to wonder if there is a line between fabrication and smithing.( have done both)
Blacksmiths should be good at fabrication. it is part of the job but fabricators don't need to know squat about smithing.
If the hebo is evil it is because it has allowed customers to say" I'm looking for some hand forged railings"
(so you say you do that sort of work and they say
" but he is cheaper , can you compete".
He being the one with the hebo.
You can try to explain the difference. "this one is hand forged and just look at the scrolls , see the delicate ribbon scroll and compare it to Mr chunky over there" and they will look at you and say" yea but he's cheaper".
Some will say " I wish I could afford it"
I have sympathy for them. they get the difference and can't afford it.
I am a luddite. Unabashed. proud of it. I resist the "dark side;)" it will not get me.
I am free.
machines take jobs every day. lets let them take the jobs of coal miners and give them a better job. one like smithing.
Now there might not be much fun in punching 700 odd holes by hand but with the right mental approach it can be quite relaxing. Bowl a hole.
and it's above ground (lets all remember those that died to make our fuel and ore(including elec))And the three quarters of an hour for each picket got down to 15 mins each(four holes).
I am a persistent and stubborn one.(being polite) and so will probably die poor before I jump for a hebo. ( then for twisting I'll try out the rigid 535 someone gave me.)
There is another machine I do covet.but alas finding it will be a task.
More jobs for smiths less for engineers.:timebomb: OK I didn't say that.
Ps glad I got my moneys worth at the hair dressers;) they get a big tip.
bryanwi. you are right. I do think there is a lot more to it than just the product or the profits.
I don't want to see skills go under because machines make it easier.
Luddite
4:04 pm
oh and lol ries. I get this easy
"it is not something I have done before or since, as, generally, scrolls dont excite me."
dave T would be fully on your side. he is one that says "cheap space filler". it is hard to get enthused making something that is not exciting for people that don't care if you make the effort.
JE
"Two stools per person.
Quite the sight." Yuck
5:24 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
My motto is
"I am slow, and expensive".
So, no, owning the Hebo does not make me the low bidder.
There are companies that have Hebos, and crank out crap all day long. And fabricators buy the stuff, mig weld it up, and call it hand forged.
I wont be doing any scrolls at the conference.
I am going to try to give a pretty comprehensive rundown on twisting, which has a lot more possibilities than most realize, and the Hebo is just a way to make it faster and show more in one day.
I admit, like Larry, I am a tool whore. I spent years lusting after various machines, and eventually figuring out ways to get other people to buy em for me.
But I dont like machines just for themselves- its what they can do that interests me.
The goal is to have the machine work be transparent- that is, for the piece to be good, and it not matter how it was made.
I dont usually call myself a blacksmith, unless I am around artists, because they HATE craftspeople, so it bugs em to call yourself a craftsman. Usually I refer to myself as a post-industrial craftsman- that is, somebody who is trying to subvert the machinery of the industrial revolution, the worker seizing control of production.
I would definitely agree in the therapeutic and educational qualities of doing 500 of something- I get into a zen state all the time, making multiples, and after a couple hundred, you get good at it.
I just sometimes add machines to the mix.
Machines dont do this stuff on their own- You can order a CNC milling machine into your shop, but it takes time, skill, and patience to get it to produce usable parts.
My favorite read on this subject is David Pye, and his book, The Nature and Art of Workmanship-
It talks about why we like things made by hand, as opposed to mass produced factory goods, in a very smart and detailed way.
5:35 pm
I have a similar motto.
" It may take time, but it will last"
also
" wedding gifts that out live the house fire"
"And fabricators buy the stuff, mig weld it up, and call it hand forged."
yep see evil;)
glad to hear no scrolls. Though . um. I kinda, well sort of. lets just say I don't hate scrolls.
I like Blacksmith .or luddite.
Most Users Ever Online: 668
Currently Online:
11 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Larry L: 1566
Grant: 1420
Bruce Macmillan: 625
Lee Cordochorea: 595
Lynn Gledhill: 572
JNewman: 520
Gene C: 504
J Wilson: 426
Eric Sprado: 383
Tom Allyn: 340
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 22
Members: 8723
Moderators: 4
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 23
Forums: 97
Topics: 3537
Posts: 20288
Newest Members:
fred.f.chopin, RuoYi, rodeoneerer, NWBABjorn, mddangelo, Nevillberger, Crusty Veteran, redwoodforgeoakland, Jimekalmiya, George_KelleyModerators: Steve McGrew: 77, N.W.B.A.: 72, webmaster: 0, bluehost: 0
Administrators: admin: 540
Usage Policy