Log In
Register
Home
Topic RSS
5:49 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline
Ries;4929 wrote:
My favorite read on this subject is David Pye, and his book, The Nature and Art of Workmanship-
It talks about why we like things made by hand, as opposed to mass produced factory goods, in a very smart and detailed way.
Yep, great book.... The companion book, The Nature and Aesthetics of Design, I found a little harder to read but almost as valuable
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
5:58 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline
What I find really inspiring is that we can find common ground in the ideal if not in the proses... And back to my view that if we didnt have the whole spectrum we would be worse off as a whole.... We cant do away with tradition and ignore the value and romanticism... But we cant ignore technology and modern advancements... And its best if not everyone tries to cover the whole spectrum.. We need people pushing the envelope and we need people who dont employ methods developed after the renaissance and every level between... What is important to the craft is people are in love and engaged with what they do... Dont make Jack spend all day making scrolls on the Hebo and dont make me spend all day making nails in a coke forge and we will all be happy:cloud9:
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
6:10 pm
lol no don't make me make anything on a hebo and I will be happy.
I find for bigger materials bigger heats do a great job. And that (as long as there is no induction around) takes enough time for a cup of tea and a smoke break.
Luddite and lovin it
12:10 am
NWBA Member
June 17, 2010
Offline
Reading this thread has reminded me of some comments I have received from the uninformed public. Here are a few examples:
On the topic of hand-working
Q: You just beat things into a mold, right?
Me: If that were true, where do you think I would get the molds?
Q: You buy them?
When politely asking a potential client why they chose railings from Home Depot:
Client: We were going to have something custom-made, but we don't like curly-cues.
The day after I got my deposit check, the architect calls and asks this:
Architect: 200 feet of railing, how hard can that be? I don't understand why you can't have it ready in three days.
In these times of such a glut of information available, I realize that there is still a long way to go and so much more work to be done!
12:25 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
I remember one time I was making a bunch of shackles for the Navy and a guy (a blacksmith actually) said "well, can't they just buy those"? I had to explain to him that, that is just what they did, but someone, somewhere still has to make them.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
10:15 pm
NWBA Member
August 1, 2010
Offline
Sigh.
There are people who write to say others should not hunt, but should instead get their meat, poultry, and eggs from the grocery store. And when asked "where do you think the grocery store gets them" give some answer involving a very large freezer...
Same people who assume forged shackles are made "somewhere else"
And that electrical sockets and switches come from "far far away" (bothell, it turns out.)
And "custom" means something vague, but certainly not something designed totally to suit the needs or taste of the buyer, that would be too far out...
10:46 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
"Custom" has been totally corrupted. Like the large housing development that says "8 custom (or unique) designs to choose from".
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
10:49 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
I knew one guy who didn't know that milk came from cows. Thought it was some kind of manufactured product! Asked him "what about the cow on the carton"? He just thought it was like many products that have animals on the box.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
11:22 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
One Ironic thing about the Hebo is that it wouldnt exist, except for the overwhelming German cultural preference for hand forged ironwork.
The machines were built to make old timey looking stuff, in a much more authentic way than what passes for "Rot Iron" here in the USA.
In Germany, customers demand textured forged top rails, with forged returns, they want basket twists and curved belly bars and fishtails on their scrolls, and they want it all to be made from solid steel, no square tubing, no visible mig welds, and they want it to look like it was made at the time their 300 year old house was built.
And thus, the German mind develops the Hebo, so a one man shop can knock out hundreds of feet a year of twists, fishtails, and scrolls.
Many, many, traditional german blacksmiths (and you cannot call yourself a blacksmith in Germany unless you do a state approved apprenticeship) own Hebos.
Whereas here, where we are much Purer of Heart, and true path blacksmiths insist on all traditional hand processes, the vast majority of consumers buy mig welded square tube with the dingleberries spray painted black.
Go figure.
5:11 am
NWBA Member
Board Member
April 26, 2010
Offline
Grant's comments remind me of an anecdote from a dear lady I once knew. While in one of the hoity-toity all-natural stores, she overheard a young lass ask "Mommy, which factory are oranges made in?" The mother looked confused for a moment before replying "I don't really know, Dear."
No matter where you go... there you are.
6:29 am
NWBA Member
August 1, 2010
Offline
In every discussion of any artful or craftful process I've seen, there are usually at least the following camps:
1. This is very High Quality because I used (or did not use) process-Q to make it!
(film, digital, cibachrome, leicas, hand forged, structured coding, hand knitted, iso 9000, made in some place, not made in some place, made by machine, machined from solid, made by hand, cast from wood patterns, watercolor, oil paint, painted in blood, provided by IBM....)
The real error here is mistaking process for end result, and mistaking the worker's desire to be valued for their efforts/skills/technique/capital-investment with what the end consumer cares about.
2. This is very High Quality because it follows objective rule R!
(The photos are Very Sharp. The water Very Pure. The paint Very Red.)
Yup, so it's very well executed scrap or crap. (Or sometimes really good work.)
3. And everybody struggles with What is Quality Really?
Ries describes a culture that defines quality as "looks like 17th century work" OK. Why did it look that way? Perhaps because it's pleasing to the eye, robust and safe on your balcony, forgiving to hands and the faces of children? Heavy enough it often lasted 300 years?
Or maybe it's because if you do it to this standard, the local assorted authorities leave you alone? How many gates, fences, and railings are done to get some party off somebody's back? How much art is bought to satisfy public art requirements in funding or zoning rules, by people who don't care at all?
What is Quality now? Square tube, solid, mig, tig, blah blah - those are attributes we use to explain the issue. It's not about square tube, mig welds, or weld berries. It's about a rough thing that is and will be irksome for most anybody to look at, unforgiving of hands, and is plainly visible. Do you want this thing that will cut your fingers, rust, and is obnoxious to look at in front of your house? For the next 30 years?
Folks have written books (some referred to here) about the physical, ergonomic, and psychological forces that generally explain what people perceive as being of high quality. But "made with a hebo" or "made with a trip hammer powered by a mule" don't appear in those evaluations, in general.
(The whole organic food thing may or may not be an exception, I don't think it's relevent here.)
So, a hebo is no more evil (or good) than a welder or a hammer. What is good or bad is the market dynamic of what people can and will pay for, and the quailty of work that producers make.
Indeed, if a hebo (or power hammer or whatever) allows you to economically make product to a higher ergonomic standard - so your customers get a more pleasent product at a price they can afford - how is that not good?
6:33 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
Reminds me of the lady in the pet store who inquired on the price of a certain puppy. "Oh, that bitch is fifteen hundred dollars" said the owner. The lady was obviously taken aback, so the owner said "I'm sorry, haven't you heard the term "bitch" used before"? And the lady responded: "Of course I have................but not in reference to a dog"!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
7:01 am
March 22, 2010
Offline
Um, How does the bitch relate?
I got a good bitch post, I'll put it in the joke section...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
8:36 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
Well, it was supposed to go after Lee's post, but somehow Brian got his post in there before me.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
9:40 pm
May 18, 2010
Offline
Grant;4945 wrote: I remember one time I was making a bunch of shackles for the Navy and a guy (a blacksmith actually) said "well, can't they just buy those"? I had to explain to him that, that is just what they did, but someone, somewhere still has to make them.
I have had people stand in my shop watching as we forge the anchor bolts for the end of 70 ton forklift chains, and say "I thought these would have been made in some sort of factory". Ah duh well what do you think you are standing in right now, a bowl of scotch mist. Fair dinkum!
Phil
10:50 pm
August 14, 2010
Offline
I generally describe the shop as "my own little factory". I find it quite amusing when my artist friends refer to it as a "studio".
Ries; you should make a spreadsheet about your Hebo and post it over here http://www.iforgeiron.com/topi.....nvils-why/ :bomb:
1:38 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
Well, of course this will never be settled because there really is no fixed "tradition". Blacksmiths, for over 2000 years and in nearly every corner of the globe have developed every possible tradition. The only constant I observe is that they always seem to use anything and everything available to them to make the job go easier, faster or to explore new areas.
Some think coal or coke is "traditional", yet they are relatively recent developments. The London pattern anvil doesn't even date in common use for more than 200 years. Hand-cranked blowers? relatively recent, maybe 150 years.
Actually, I think we are the probably the very first generation of blacksmith to even discuss the idea of deliberately limiting how we should do things and what equipment is acceptable. My view has always been that the customer is king and most customers are more interested in the result than the process.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
3:07 am
March 22, 2010
Offline
And the Galactic King has spoken! We shall now enjoy a 1000 years of blacksmithing brotherhood
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
4:36 am
NWBA Member
June 8, 2010
Offline
jack frost;4875 wrote: there I was thinking this was the NWblacksmtih association. must be mistaken with the fabricators association.
the machine is not evil. but to pretend the scrolls they produce are quality is.It is a cheap way to fill space.
and it most often looks like it.
have fun
Good Job, Jack!! :bounce:
5:02 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
While I can argue the case for business and productivity, in my heart I can see what Jack is saying and as someone who'd rather be a blacksmith than be rich ( yes Virginia, they are opposites) I kind of agree.
Did I say that?
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
Most Users Ever Online: 668
Currently Online: Emmaythomson
13 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Larry L: 1566
Grant: 1420
Bruce Macmillan: 625
Lee Cordochorea: 595
Lynn Gledhill: 572
JNewman: 520
Gene C: 504
J Wilson: 426
Eric Sprado: 383
Tom Allyn: 340
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 22
Members: 8724
Moderators: 4
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 23
Forums: 97
Topics: 3537
Posts: 20288
Newest Members:
cameliacity, fred.f.chopin, RuoYi, rodeoneerer, NWBABjorn, mddangelo, Nevillberger, Crusty Veteran, redwoodforgeoakland, JimekalmiyaModerators: Steve McGrew: 77, N.W.B.A.: 72, webmaster: 0, bluehost: 0
Administrators: admin: 540
Usage Policy