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9:09 am
March 26, 2010
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Larry L;5020 wrote: We shall now enjoy a 1000 years of blacksmithing brotherhood
Hmmmm, didn't some "historical" figure from Germany in the 30's try and create a 1000 year Reich
Ein volk ein reich ein Grant :giggle:
4:05 pm
lol Grant. I can see the point of productivity as well. It is my heart that refuses to co-operate with my brain's desire to make some money.
😉
Occasionally Both get what they want. but that is rarely by design , more luck.
5:46 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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Grant;5187 wrote: While I can argue the case for business and productivity, in my heart I can see what Jack is saying and as someone who'd rather be a blacksmith than be rich ( yes Virginia, they are opposites) I kind of agree
I dunno- I was in Barnes and Noble, once, looking thru this fancy coffee table book, and there was a whole chapter on the house Al Paley lives in- and it sure looked like he was both.
Seriously- there are a good two dozen real blacksmiths I know who run businesses, and are not "rich", but make a living at least as good as a policeman or an insurance salesman- People like Mike Bondi, Steve Lopes, John Medwedeff, Glenn Gilmore, and the aforementioned Paley- and none of them have sold their soul to the Mig Welder Devil.
I think its a false dichotomy to say you are either Pure, and Poor, or a rich sellout- but all those guys are really smart, incredible hard workers, and willing to do stuff they dont like- like sales, or managing employees, or juggling businesses with no free time.
6:01 pm
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April 26, 2010
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Increased productivity does not insure prosperity. It helps, of course. Good marketing helps more.
Methinks it is the marketing, not the productivity, which opens the door for potential evil. Potential, not compulsory.
No matter where you go... there you are.
7:08 pm
May 14, 2010
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In Baseball, you hear talk about somebody being a 5-tool player. Five tool players are the highest paid players in the game and are highly sought after. A 5 tool player is one that has: great speed, can hit for average, can hit for power, has a great throwing arm and is excellent defensively.
The cold hard fact of running a successful business as a “blacksmith” in today’s market is that you need to be much more than simply a good craftsman or a skilled hand forger. Personally, I would not try and run my business with one hand tied behind my back to prove any point or embrace any romantic notion. To do this, would surely foretell dark clouds and trouble on the horizon. I would use every means available to me, to achieve my goals be it: Hebo, mig, tig, press, power hammer, outsource, Johnson bar, Nelson Rod, bailing wire, etc.
To use the baseball analogy, a 5-tool blacksmith will have:
1) The ability to sell
2) Highly creative, able to conceive and articulate original designs
3) Able to successfully market your business
4) A skilled forger (hand and/or power hammer)
5) A skilled fabricator (welding, cutting, forming layout, measurement, etc)
All of the guys Ries mentioned individually posses all of the above attributes. The 5-tools are not in any particular order. You need them all. A smart business man will soon realize that if he himself is lacking in one of those areas, he either needs to quickly get better at it, or hire someone who excels in that skill.
I would argue that #1 and #2 are why most would-be blacksmiths have trouble. I would also argue that you could be a superstar at #4 and #5, but without 1, 2 and 3 would be a “spectacular failure” at running a business.
-DB
7:57 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline10:34 am
March 26, 2010
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David Browne;5208 wrote:
The cold hard fact of running a successful business as a “blacksmith” in today’s market is that you need to be much more than simply a good craftsman or a skilled hand forger. Personally, I would not try and run my business with one hand tied behind my back to prove any point or embrace any romantic notion. To do this, would surely foretell dark clouds and trouble on the horizon. I would use every means available to me, to achieve my goals be it: Hebo, mig, tig, press, power hammer, outsource, Johnson bar, Nelson Rod, bailing wire, etc.
I wouldn't know as baseball if it bit me on the arse but I'm totally with you you there.
I "messed around" with metals both as a hobby and "professionally" and things really change when you're trying to earn a living from it. Putting food on my table and a roof over my head is priority number 1, after that comes somehow feeling sorta creatively satisfied and having a business that pays for me to aquire and play around with tools I simply could NOT afford as hobby. Tradition really doesn't concern me in the slightest, feeling satisfied by what I "do" does. Productivity is a BIG part of this.
Mass production and productivey have always entered my equation. A while back I made little nick nacks, bowls candlesticks and the like and sold them via galleries. The only way to make them at a sellable price was to make lots of them in a batch, in the most effiecient way possible. These days I tend to do mostly architectural scale work and I've yet to take on a commission were there isn't a large amount of repetion in the the work
How something is made is only a small part of the picture for me. Even doing ye olde traditional blacksmythe guff become tedious when you have to do "it" over and over and over and over again .....which you (or and an employee fueled by your money) nearly always have to do when earning a living. I get a kick from from the "production engineering" that inevitable goes with big jobs. The best parts of a job for me are meeting the client and coming up with the design, planning and logistics, design and enginering, prototyping, jig making, problem solving, tooling up, photographing the finished work. The lumpy bit in the middle where you heat this bit here, hit this bit there, put that bit there (a few hundred times) is often the mind numbingly dull bit. There is however a fair bit of job satisfaction if you're doing it efficiently because of the process and jigs you've designed and made.
Long live the HEBO
Long live the MIG
Long live the Ironworker
Long live the 4 1/2" angle grinder
Long live the plasma cutter
Long live the induction heater
Hey isn't the coal forge one of those new fangled ideas, wasn't charcoal always the fuel of choice for thousands of years. ... and don't start me of on those steam hammers, we managed for thousands of years with water powered trip hammers. If they were good enough then, they are good enough now ............................. drone drone drone .... past ... mythical golden era... blah blah blah ... I blame it on the devil music children listen too ... drone drone ..... nostagalgia .... drone drone. Hey why don't well all die in our fourties because we're burnt out from HARD work just like god intended us ... blah blah blah. Did you know the earth is 6000 years old and dinsosaurs roamed it not that long ago .... blah blah drone drone drone. I know, why don't we put children to work in the mills ..... and church them up while we're at it ...blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
3:05 pm
September 7, 2010
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Reis,
We own a Hebo in our middle east shop and I have a chinese copy apart from build quality of the machine they are much the same exept for price! the tooling is interchangeable!
You can even give your favorite scroll to your chinese manufacturer and he will make you dies to replicate the exact scroll. So it can be "bespoke" and not the oft used and abused 'custom' . These tools certainly have a place in this industry however I for one detest the mig so it stands mostly unused and rather have the guys use TIG .
Ian
4:31 pm
"I would argue that #1 and #2 are why most would-be blacksmiths have trouble. I would also argue that you could be a superstar at #4 and #5, but without 1, 2 and 3 would be a “spectacular failure” at running a business.
-DB"
Totally a complete failure as a buisness man. but an excellent smith is not a problem. the business men should be hiring the smiths.
LOL I worked at one of Ries' mentioned shops and was told that I did not have the forging skills . I wondered how he could assess that when he was telling me not to come back on monday morning when all he had me do for three months was weld (with a mig) navel bronze ( lets just call it Brass) together. Grind grind and re-patina. That shop will remain nameless but it was no place to got o learn smithing. very successful though.
So I went off to another guy who did a pretty successful business who I will name. as way of warning to all.
Jefferson Mack metals. Did well. was rubbish at smithing and really not nice to employees(sacked two people when I arrived because he thought I would be cheaper than the eurosmiths he had had to hire to fill the position because he was having problems finding the skills here.(I have no need for green card)). I lasted till 10 the next morning after day one there.Then told him I don't work for people that treat people so bad.
Both successful but none of that makes good smithing.
Necessary evil is what I hear. and maybe so.PS How the heck is a mig any worse than a tig. really. cleaned up weld done well is a clean weld done well?A badly cleaned weld is still a badly cleaned up weld (and trendy it seems).
4:50 pm
March 22, 2010
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A friend of my dads (Wayne Thackery) once told me "A good weld is a beautiful thing, A bad weld looks ground"
That has stuck with me....
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
5:49 pm
but it's still a visible weld. no matter how nice the weld it is still a weld. they ALL take some dressing to hide or grind.
I have done plenty of tig welding in the food industry. no different from mig at the end. I used to make railings for the handrail dept in town. made oh.... lets say a hundred ft of rail a day . slap dash and grind "good".
(you know how fire dept is on their deliveries. all must look real smooth. for a fab rail.;)
yet the most money I have made per hour is on Smithing projects.
as to marketing. There was once a great american comedian who had many words to say about marketing.
Bill Hicks. My did he say it well.
Google "bill hicks on marketing";) or click below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....DW_Hj2K0wo
Marketing doesn't make a smith no one should confuse a good smith and someone who is good at marketing.
8:26 pm
March 22, 2010
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Your right Jack from a forge work perspective you should never see a weld as a weld. But there are Plenty of things I do where a nice weld looks better than a ground weld
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
1:15 am
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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I've got a new saying- "Why do those jobs that require the absolute least pay the absolute most?" In economics 101 they call it the paradox of value.
Meaning- why can I charge out the @ss for some modernist thin-air railing without a lick of smithing in it than I could for some hand wrought thing I labor over for weeks and weeks?
This probably falls into the marketing category but it hits on another aspect of business and that is; people's changing tastes.
Out here on the west coast I think alot of it is driven by minimalism, modernism. etc.
I can't remember the last time anyone asked for a scroll or a rounded corner unless they were back east.
I made peace with the fact that I may never make the gates of Versailles and that has allowed me to focus more on the things I want to do. I'm a Gepeto in the workshop of Pinochio.:p
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
3:10 am
March 18, 2010
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I heard an architect talking one time regarding "modern" style in large buildings and he said that it really isn't a style as such, it's just a complete lack of any style at all.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
4:39 am
NWBA Member
April 19, 2010
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You're right Larry... One of the worst slaps in the face I've gotten in the workplace was when I was learning to weld at the Coast Guard base in Kodiak. I had completed building some sort of large reel(can't remember what for) and asked my mentor what he thought.
His reply, "nice grinding job". I wanted to crawl in to a hole. Even though I love good "traditional" smithing,there is beauty in a well executed weld bead. Especially with a hard to run rod... Jack-am I letting the cat out of the bag here to let folks know you are a World Class welder too,besides being a World Class blacksmith???? I know-we all(or most of us) need to do something to put beans on the table. I've spent the last twenty years as a negotiator when I would have rather still been on the ranch and shoeing horses...
5:20 pm
"I heard an architect talking one time regarding "modern" style in large buildings and he said that it really isn't a style as such, it's just a complete lack of any style at all."
lol Grant. I think I used to study under that architect;)
I find the minimalist look real funny. the ultimate minimalist stair case has NO rails. sticks out from the wall looking like it "floats". Minimalism requires so much upkeep to keep every surface totally clear of anything including all of life's necessities. A style best suited to those that eat out and visit their own homes. Or those with a maid.
Not against it but am amused by it. "Take your shoes off" " don't put that down there"
Why is it popular?
because CAD can deal with it.In the old days it was just easier to draw with a parallel motion drawing board. Easy Axonometrics. None of those confusing curves to have to draw. and a complete lack of comprehension of what else is available that is not in the catalogue (architects often design from source catalogues .
Larry, yep if the weld is good. indeed I am sure you know that grinding on some welds is not allowed. Needle gun to de-stress but no grind marks when earthquake code is in effect. The inspectors like to see what was done.
Eric I'm no world class anything,(maybe my recreational hobby and being a butthead oh and cat expresser ) but I will admit to being pretty good at the welding. ( I went to Hereford Blacksmithing and metal work course. we all had to weld and fabricate. Funny thing is I went there to get a better understanding of welding so I could get more work than with Gas welding qualifications. I went to learn Tig Mig and stick and got a free class every day in blacksmithing.)we used Folders presses and more (anyone heard of a "flame cleaner" for rust. GREAT tool for removing rust and converting the surface to a black oxide. only ever seen one;) at school shame . gets rid of rust real quick and without all the dust of a drinder etc. I have a confession though on welding. I really like GAS welding. The noble weld:confused: best way to learn and so nice and quiet. peaceful. Fun. None of that hurry of the electric welds.
Still I actually like the welding process . It is all fiery fun to me.
cybo makes an amusing though confusing observation that is so true. how come I can make a load off a cable rail job that takes two days to make but nothing off a hand made lamp that takes weeks.;( I say Hebo evil but I'm no angel;)
Ps while the cats are playing. Eric did you ever let on you are one hell of an auctioneer? Seriously folk. the man's a pro-auctioneer .
7:02 pm
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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Good point on gas welding, Jack. I have some of Julius Schram and Fritz Kuhn's amazing books from the 50's (in german) and while looking at their first class reproductions of baroque and rennaisance ironwork, the word 'Autogen' pops out. Autogenous was the word first used for oxyacetylene welding back in the late 1800's early 1900's. Seems they made peace with it early on. I do like the fact that the better one gets at smithing, the less you need to reach for the 'blue glue gun'. I do think in alot of cases you can get a stronger connection with a well-done traditional joint (mortise and tenon) than if you just bird-poop a fillet weld on a T joint. In either case it depends alot on technique, skill, preparation and careful attention to your material. If I told you how many times the word 'weld' and 'crack' are mentioned in the modern building codes you *would* believe it~!
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
1:51 pm
lol Cybo. you're right I would not be surprised;) There is a great show on the BBC in the UK late at night(well used to be) Open University. (great late night viewing for the insomniacs ) they had one show I remembered which was about the liberty ships. and how they had not figured out corners yet. This killed a lot of people because the boats cracked up.
Back when I was talking of collars being stronger. that was partly because most collared welds seem to look just like the birdpoop welds you describe.
Or a weld that was done between two bars then ground flush to the point there is not really much weld there at all.
by the time I grind the bevel. weld. grind flush. my collar has already sucked up tight;)
and will be stronger. the prep and clean up time to 'fake it' take longer.:balanced:
1:56 am
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Board Member
April 26, 2010
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I was poking around in the archives and found something reminding me of this topic.
Please look at the fireplace screen on p10 of the Winter 1999 Hot Iron News: http://blacksmith.org/forums/c.....-Iron-News Please read the caption as well.
Note well how these scrolls are NOT just a cheap way to fill space! Look closely! Each scroll has an individual personality. Each one is textured as well as wrapped. (Darn near looks like they may have been twisted prior to scrolling.) And they're wrapped with quite a bit of material.
Now go up to page 8 and find these words penned by Samuel Yellin: "Those who make full-size details of iron work with practically all the dimensions marked on them are not working in the proper way. Work executed from such details becomes a purely mechanical product. When it is finished it might quite as well have been cast or turned on a lathe for it is as far removed from craftsmanship as a piece of burlap is from a Gobelin Tapestry."
No matter where you go... there you are.
1:14 am
NWBA Member
August 1, 2010
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Hmmmmm.
Well, I can't see anything at that link.
But I do report that there was a study a few years ago suggesting people like a certain level of complexity in their visual field. It will vary a little from person to person. Some of us find baroque "too much" and bauhaus "too little". And as I have aged, I find my tastes have changed.
What does this mean in this conversation? I'm not sure, except that blacksmithing is often about making things that will last for a *very long time* so designs that are not tiring or irritating, are easy to take care of, look good in the real world, those are the designs to have your name on.
I notice that some buildings look great when new, and look pretty crappy when 10 years old. Other buildings are many decades old, and at least from the outside, look pretty good. I guess I'd like anything I make to look decent when it's decades old.
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