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3:53 am
March 22, 2010
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So The talk about the Hebo and the machines VS. hand skill argument have been on my mind a lot... I lean much more to the modern side of things more out of a need to be productive and profitable than because of taste.. I wish I had the skill to be able to make money doing it the "hard" way and I know im stuck because if I dont do it the hard way over and over I wont get good at it... I think traditional methods are inspiring and I admire those who seek to keep the proses "pure" because they value and revere the providence and prose it represents. But I chose to make a living doing this, its not a fun time hobby where there are consequences and time limits... I also chose to have a big shop full of expensive stuff so I have to generate a pretty fair chunk of dough every month to keep from loosing it all and still manage to eat and sleep in a warm place (and stay married)
I am not usually as hyper aware of the methods I use but because of the discussion of late I paid attention to what I was doing today (and yesterday kind-of)
I am building three tables that are suppose to be "blacksmithy" looking on a budget...
and by budget I mean about $300 each for labor... I dont know about you but when someone says they want to spend $300 labor I think what can i do in 4 hours... and the answer is not much...
So this is what I came up with
So.... this is pseudo smithing at its finest 😀 The legs are 5/8 HR sq with all the edges beveled cold under the power hammer and the foot upset just a bit in the induction forge...
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[Image Can Not Be Found] The little tie parts on the bottom of the legs is 3/8 sq bent and then joggled in the hydraulic press on simple tooling... done warm (6 second heat in the induction forge)
They are just welded in.... the cross brace is 3/8 that is joggled in the center cold under the press....
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
The top is 1/4 X 3 flat bar with the top beveled on the powerhammer... it was all welded together then the holes for the rivets drilled and the dressed rivets welded in from the back
Here is the stack of legs for the other two tables..
[Image Can Not Be Found]
So basically in a day and a half I came up with a design, manufactured all the parts and fully assembled one table... In no small part becuase not a single chunk went in the forge or even laid on an anvil.... Am I proud of these? You know its just a project. I feel like the customer is getting a very high quality product given the price and I am limited by what the customer wants and is willing to pay... Lets just say I am not embarrassed by them, they are what they are... Could I have built them better? sure but not if I wanted to make money and my feeling is lets see a "welder" build something comparable for even twice the price... I am proud that I can offer something to a client that most would have to turn away because of budget constraints.... The other thing is so its not all done by the sweat of my brow in a side draft coke forge.. But its not someone else's pre-made parts or clunky crap either... it was all made by "hand" in my shop in the clients eyes...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
4:07 am
November 8, 2010
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Looks like blacksmithing to me, Larry. 🙂 Looks really good!
That's why it's know as industrial arts 😉
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10:27 am
May 18, 2010
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Looks OK to me, ya gotta put food on the table and you can only give the customer what they are paying for.
Phil
2:00 pm
May 13, 2010
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They look good Larry. I am not sure I would have even tried to make a $300 table, unless things were REALLY slow, but it looks like you were successful in making them look good profitably. Having 3 to build certainly helps. Do you have to do the finishing as well? I often find that takes quite a while.
4:20 pm
March 22, 2010
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Thats one thing that really saved this deal is i dont have to do any finish.. The story I told is more or less accurate but the part I didn't tell is the client is a former co-worker who is a jeweler, he helped a bit and will finish them on his own... he also supplied the granite tops and chased down the material.
I usually dont give much thought to finish cost and then kick myself, I can never seem to remember its always a huge pain and takes forever. I have found that finishing and installations are something that If I dont have to mess with I'll gladly work much cheaper...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
4:42 pm
November 4, 2010
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I think that story is as old as blacksmithing, Larry. The way I see it, the first smith who hooked a helve hammer to a water wheel was trying to increase productivity. Maybe some people considered his methods less "authentic" than using a striker, back in the day. So what? The guy was just trying to make a living. So it goes. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned.
Kind of funny that you mentino this, because I was rereading Donald Streeter's Professional Smithing last night. He had a whole arsenal of custom made jigs, punches, dies, etc. -- anything to make the job faster and easier. He also advocated doing as much cold work as possible on a lot of items, to save time on heating and finishing (no scale or scars means less finishing required).
5:04 pm
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
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The tables look great Larry.
I find it rather entertaining myself that in most crafts type trades there is always the argument of traditional methods versus the modern way. What I have found is that everyone has their own line in the sand, sometimes this revolves around profits and sometimes skill and sometimes its just about the romance of doing it the old way. For me its a combination of everything I have learned but overall I too lean more towards the so called modern way, employing equipment, fixtures whatever it takes to make my job easier and more fulfilling in the end.
The tamahagne smelts the Dave Lisch and I have done at the conferences are a great example of traditional versus modern. I can easily go and purchase any steel I need cheaper and the quality is guaranteed but the romance of smelting your own intrigues me and I enjoy it, and it does not get more traditional than making your own steel from raw hematite and charcoal. Is it cost effective in our modern times, not really, but we enjoy the process and enjoying life should be what is important. An old time knifemaker once told me that the process to create a knife was unimportant as long as the maker and customer were happy with the end result.
I can appreciate all aspects of being a blacksmith, whether you do it by hand or use modern techniques. At some point in time though even an anvil and hammer had to be a modern revolution over using a rock. Back in the day I feel any blacksmith worth their salt would have used whatever equipment was available to them to increase profits and business. We don't live in the era of the "traditional blacksmith", its great to do it by hand when you can but just because you don't should not reflect poorly on your ability and competence to turn out a great product. I respect the traditional guys, even the American Bladesmith Society is about preserving the "hand forged blade" but that romance or concept does not always jive with running a successful business 100% of the time. It is what I love to do but I also have to pay bills and put food on my family's plate.
Just think in 100 years someone will be trying to emulate or preserve your "modern way of blacksmithing", Larry, because some future blacksmith is employing robots. lol :bounce:
Tom
5:26 pm
Looks like your customer got a real good deal.
nice tables.
old vrs new? seems pretty traditional ( though welding a rivet in, i don't get that part?)
5:28 pm
Looks like your customer got a real good deal.
nice tables.
5:45 pm
March 22, 2010
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Thanks Jack... Thats not what I expected when I saw you had replied:cloud9:.... As for the rivets, they serve no structural purpose... the frames are all welded togehter.... I could have set the rivet in there but since its just for looks it was faster to just stick it in the hole and zap it with the welder from the back... Not very blacksmith like I know... But I think it looks better with them there...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
6:27 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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This is a similar table I made recently- The legs are forged, from 1 1/4" round, and the flat bar is hot textured, but for speed and simplicity, they are tig welded together.
And yep, the rivets are just tig brazed on the back. They are purely decorative, and if you weld em, you dont have to worry about the head deforming.
9:28 pm
June 10, 2010
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Larry and Ries I think you have both made very nice tables. A purist may say they are not blacksmithing but does it really matter? You have both worked in the field long enough to know how to fill the needs of your customers. I think that where you both shine over some of the detractors is that you have developed a design sense that allows you to make a one off, hopefully at a profit, that has good design and also keeps customers at your door. I do like to see forged work, but if it is poorly designed or executed it really doesn't have a leg to stand on.
6:54 am
December 19, 2010
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Nice work Larry.
5:12 am
NWBA Member
Board Member
October 4, 2010
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Hi Larry - technical question. I have some fake granite I want to make tables with. How is the top secured? Just gravity, or is it glued, friction fit or what?? Thanks.
5:57 pm
March 22, 2010
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It's captured by the frame so it can't slide off.
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:08 pm
March 18, 2010
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Larry L;5927 wrote: It's captured by the frame so it can't slide off.
And gravity does the rest!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
7:33 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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When I use oddball things for tabletops, I usually use a piece of plywood, and screw that down to the table, with hidden screws underneath.
that way, its repairable/replaceable in the future.
Then I glue whatever I am using for the top to the plywood- either with contact cement, or liquid nails. Liquid nails is only a few bucks for a tube, and it sticks to just about anything.
8:52 pm
May 13, 2010
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Ries;5929 wrote: When I use oddball things for tabletops, I usually use a piece of plywood, and screw that down to the table, with hidden screws underneath.
that way, its repairable/replaceable in the future.Then I glue whatever I am using for the top to the plywood- either with contact cement, or liquid nails. Liquid nails is only a few bucks for a tube, and it sticks to just about anything.
When Ries says oddball things for tops something makes me think he is not talking granite.
9:11 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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I have used granite, and other stones- I still have a really nice 2' x 2' stone tile that is black and blue all natural colors. That will be a table one of these days.
But yes, I have made a lot of tables with linoleum and formica and other strange flooring materials. Stuff that looks like Head Cheese and Psychedelic Barf and Rainbow Smoosh. My wife has a big collection of never used vintage flooring, going back to the forties, and I have used a bunch of that. I once found a really wild linoleum, black with gold metallic veins, that was the original flooring of the Space Needle Restaurant in 62- the dealer still had a roll end, and I made a few tables with that for the table top.
Also Diamond Plate Aluminum, Textured Stainless from Rigidized, various strange plastic sheets, and tarpaper.
9:16 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
Gee, I must be "vintage" too then. I come from way back in the forties too! You guys just love making me feel like an old fossil!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
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