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Atmospheric forge problem
April 20, 2012
2:29 pm
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billyO
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Hello all. Until I finish my new forge with a 4x10 ribbon burner, I'm still having to use an old atmospheric forge and it's started giving me a new problem: after about 2-3 hours of running, I hear a sudden change in volume, see a sudden increase in the dragon's breath, and no matter how I adjust the burner, I cannot get it back to a normal roar. The forge then cools down significantly (down to a dull orange) and is useless for forging. This, coupled with about a 45-60 min time to get up to heat makes my level of efficiency at the bottom of the barrell.
Any suggestions?
thanks
billyO

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 20, 2012
4:17 pm
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Steve H
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Hey Billy, Sounds like your propane tank is freezing up. Are you using a small-ish size tank?

They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

April 20, 2012
11:41 pm
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Gene C
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I keep my 5 gallon?? 20# tank in a kitty litter box with about 5" of water, it warms the tank enough to keep from freezing up.

Before that I floated it in water in 1/2 of a whisky barrel in the old forge.

April 21, 2012
4:12 am
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billyO
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Steve H;15208 wrote: Hey Billy, Sounds like your propane tank is freezing up. Are you using a small-ish size tank?

That was my first thought too, but it happened with a 1/2-2/3 full 100# tank. That should be plenty, no?

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 21, 2012
4:48 am
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Lynn Gledhill
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billyO;15206 wrote: Hello all. Until I finish my new forge with a 4x10 ribbon burner, I'm still having to use an old atmospheric forge and it's started giving me a new problem: after about 2-3 hours of running, I hear a sudden change in volume, see a sudden increase in the dragon's breath, and no matter how I adjust the burner, I cannot get it back to a normal roar. The forge then cools down significantly (down to a dull orange) and is useless for forging. This, coupled with about a 45-60 min time to get up to heat makes my level of efficiency at the bottom of the barrell.
Any suggestions?
thanks
billyO

Don't know what type of burner you have on your forge, however, first thing I would check is the propane orifice. Use a tip cleaning tool like for cleaning the tips of your Oxy-Acetelyne torch. Then blow it our with compressed air. I had one kind of plugging up with corrosion or rust particles.

April 21, 2012
4:49 am
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J Wilson
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Usually I'd say a 100 lb tank shouldn't freeze. What kind of burner are you using? A fan blown burner on high may freeze it up in short order. Is there frost on the tank? Tank full? Have you examined and cleaned out the burner orifice? An atmospheric at low pressure should go forever. I've had rust flakes, mud chiggers, or dust bunnies partially plug the gas jet and cause similar problems.

Grasp the cold end. Strike the hot end.

My son is the Blacksmith

April 24, 2012
1:27 pm
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billyO
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Well, I cleaned off/out the burner and noticed right off what a significantly larger hole the orifice was after cleaning. I fired it up and noticed that it got to heat a lot quicker, but the same thing happened, this time about 90 minutes into my play time. So I came up with 2 thoughts :showoff:(...must've been a good day):
1) Is it possible that, because the seal is lousy around the hole where the burner enters the forge, when the forge heat up to the critical temp, the forge expajnds enough to allow extra air to be sucked in around the outside of the burner?
2) Mr Wilson, you mentioned that the forge should "go forever" at "low pressure". When I was lent this forge from a friend, the recommended pressure was 26-32 lbs, and this doesn't seem "low pressure" to me. Now that I cleaned out the orifice, should I try a lower pressure, and if so, how low would you recommend?
thanks
billyO
(see you this weekend)

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 24, 2012
2:11 pm
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Neil Gustafson
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The freezing up is a function of the draw from the surface area of the liquid propane. There is a good book regarding propane forges and kiln's, it explains it in detail.

As Gene said, he uses a pail of water with kitty litter to act as a "Heat Sink". This works good with a 20 or 30 lbs bottle. I use two 100lbs. propane bottles, a T-fitting to connect the two together and the regulator on one of the arm of the T-fitting going to the burner. This stops the freezing for a few hours. Drywallers will sometimes manifold 4-100lbs tanks together.

Commercial tanks lie on their side, this increases the surface area, thus decreasing the draw rate per square inch. Do not lie your 100lbs tank on it's side unless you have less than 1/4 remaining, you "DO NOT" want liquid propane coming out of your regulator!!!!!:skull:

Neil

As long as we are above our shoes, We know where we are.:happy:

April 24, 2012
4:09 pm
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J Wilson
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Gas Pressure: Need to know what kind of burner you have. Either a photo or a description. My atmospheric, Reil Easy burner, Runs from 2 to 20 lbs. Usually at heat it's fine at about 5-7. Higher just for welding.

Jeff in Poulsbo, WA.
3 days until the NWBA Spring Conference. Longview, WA.
Gear and kit is collected ready to load in the truck.

My son is the Blacksmith

April 24, 2012
9:48 pm
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Mike B
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More dragon's breath and less (I assume) noise sounds like the burner's running too rich. I've had similar symptoms when the my MIG tip orifice got loose and let extra gas in around the threads, and when something obstructed the airflow into the forge. Not sure what would cause either of those to happen with heat, though.

Heat can contribute to the flame burning back into the burner tube, but you'd probably know if that was happening. If it did happen, shutting the forge down and then relighting at a higher pressure would probably stop it.

April 25, 2012
1:08 am
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billyO
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J Wilson;15272 wrote: Gas Pressure: Need to know what kind of burner you have. Either a photo or a description.

The label is quite scratched, but looks like it says Pioneer Iron Works, Lolo, MT

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found]

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 25, 2012
1:39 am
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J Wilson
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That looks like one of Art Anderson's burners. Art does recommend a higher gas pressure with his product. I don't recall, does it use a Tweco tip for the gas jet? Enlarging the orifice isn't likely what you want to do. It increases the volume of gas delivered at a lower velocity.

Have you tried adjusting the Jet in and out of the burner tube?

My son is the Blacksmith

April 25, 2012
1:51 am
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billyO
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I'll go out and see if I can get a good estimate of the orifice size.

J Wilson;15278 wrote: Have you tried adjusting the Jet in and out of the burner tube?

Yes, in my original post, when I mentioned that no matter how I adjust the burner after it acts up, that's what I was doing, moving the jet in and out. For more info (not sure if this is helpful, but in my line of work, I always prefer more information to less), my starting/running procedure is thus: before firing up the forge, I push the jet about 3/8-1/2 inch deeper then running position, light the forge, and after about 5 minutes pull the jet back about 1/4 inch, then after another 30-ish min, pull the jet out up to another 1/2 inch, using the dragon's breath and sound to tell me where. I try to have just less than just a hint of breath coming out of the forge when I'm playing.

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 25, 2012
2:04 am
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billyO
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Not sure exactly what a Twecoo tip is, but this looks to be nothing more than a brass female pipe cap with an approx .025 hole drilled in the center for the orifice.

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 25, 2012
2:39 am
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J Wilson
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Unless someone with specific experiance with this burner recommends otherwise, set the jet position for best stable burn and leave it there. You shouldn't need to keep adjusting the position.
Jeff

My son is the Blacksmith

April 25, 2012
6:37 pm
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Silas
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I have used these burners for years. They are in fact made by Art Anderson. I am currently using the smallest size burner he made in my forge. I run pressures up to 50 or 60 psi when starting the forge and getting it hot and then dial it back to maintain temp. This burner will only freeze a 100lb tank at the very bitter end. I do adjust the airflow occasionally to tune my flame. If you are having trouble getting it to start choke down the air a little.

These are incredibly simple and efficient burners and mine has no problem getting my forge hot enough to melt steel.

As far as the temperature drop goes i'm not sure what to tell you. Any forge will drop significantly in temperature if the doors are wide open and or you are putting big cold bars in.

April 26, 2012
3:01 am
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billyO
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Hi Silas, thanks for your input. Do you know the orifice size of your burner? I've run mine only up to 35lbs, and never gotten close to welding heats. From reading your post, I'm wondering why I shouldn't try 50lbs. I have no trouble getting it fired up, only the non-welding temps and sudden change in my first post.

I don't use doors, and try to arrange the bricks to minimize the opening, and don't really heat large pieces, 5/8"-3/4" sq/dia is about a big as I go in my garage...

(should I go straight from 32-50, or try a gradual increase???)hmmm.....

40 :unsure: 50

as always

peace and love

billyO

April 26, 2012
2:25 pm
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Justin Carnecchia
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I wonder how much of the problem is with the forge itself? What is it insulated with? You said it takes 45-60min to come up to heat, my forge takes only a few minutes. That's running at 5-10psi and my forge is in bad need of relining. Are you using ITC-100 or something similar?
You mentioned that where the burner enters is loose, I would fix that. The "graphite rope" available at wood stove stores is cheap and works fine for me.
To see if there is in fact a problem with the burner take it out and run it in a vise so you can clearly see the flame, and how any adjustments effect it. However it sounds like the forge itself isn't holding heat well and as a result of the very high pressures you are freezing you're tank.
Even the best burner won't effectively heat a poorly designed (insulated) forge, but I have easily gotten to welding heat with a well insulated forge and a very crude burner.
Best of luck, -Justin

April 26, 2012
5:43 pm
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Silas
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billy,

Go right for it at the higher pressures. I crank my regulator pretty much as far as it will go and it registers around 60 psi. I will second the comment about insulation, my forge is very well insulated, this is the most important factor in determining efficiency and ultimate performance. I built my current forge a couple months back and coated it with ITC 100. So far I have been very impressed with the results. It is very expensive but I believe Seattle Pottery Supply sells it in small quantities. I'm interested to see how the ITC 100 affects the long term durability of the forge. This forge gets used by two professional blacksmiths on a daily basis and has probably had as much use in the last two months as most hobby forges get in a year or two. The initial results have been very positive.

That being said, a very hot and durable forge can be built without using ITC 100. The key is to use a reflective insulation. This means either soft fire brick or fibre blanket. Fibre blankets (kaowool) always must be fully encapsulated. At forging temperature the kaowool becomes super carcinogenic. You do not want to breathe the particulate that results!

The Art Anderson burner is designed to run at very high pressures and low volume and as such, comparisons to gas pressures run on other types of burners are largely irrelevant.

April 26, 2012
10:29 pm
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billyO
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Thanks for all the replies! Just to clarify, I never mentioned that my tank was freezing up, so thanks for the advice on that, but that's not the issue.

As far as insulation goes, the forge is a 14" piece of 10" dia, 1/4" wall iron pipe w/approx 1 1/2" of castable refractory cement as insulation. The openings are covered with fire bricks that I move around t change the opening size to fit the projet. I've used green patch (same thing as ITC?) to try to seal where the burner enters the forge, but ths isn't a great seal.

Not sure if I'll have time to fire it up tonight and with the conference starting tomorrow, it may be next week before I will be able to report back on how the higher pressure works.
Thanks again, see you this weekend (I hope).
billyO

as always

peace and love

billyO

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