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Ribbon burner forge build
October 7, 2010
4:57 am
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one of the things not discussed is how to know when a burner outlives its usefullness and fails, ie, the tell tail signs of the cast refractory failure. after about 4 yrs of near daily use, my burner cracked and began to emit blue flames rising between the narrow opening between the burner and the housing which held the burner in place. the wisps of blue flame arising when just lighting the forge seemed not normal, so i pulled the burner and took a close look at it. the refractory was a little loose in the housing and hairline cracks were visible. it still worked, but...time to recast.

when casting, try to keep the refractory as dry as can be cast, ie, the consistency of peanut butter. mix well and use your fingers to drop globs between the crayons, then lightly tap the box to settle the mixture. the longevity of the burner will be greatly enhanced.

je

October 23, 2010
5:06 am
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Larry L
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well I figured it was time to share some of my ribbon burner forge build... I have been dragging my feet trying to figure out what I was doing... So I just gave up on doing it perfect and settled for just doing it... I have not had the burner going with the kaowool in there but I think the ridgidizer will be dry tomorrow.... I am going to build some castable end doors but for the moment I'll just use bricks.... I stole Dave Hammers idea of the slot down the side for strange size chunks... This is not meant to be my primary forge but a second "big stuff" station....

I'll report back after she has had a real fire...

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Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 23, 2010
4:01 pm
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Larry,

Awesome!

JE

October 23, 2010
10:38 pm
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Bill Cottrell
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I really like the ribbon burner I made Larry. Boy it gets that forge hot quick too. It has been up to 2000 degrees and still climbing when I shut it down. I had to take the big blower off and put one of the little ones like Grant has and I'm a lot happier with it now. I can actually open the gate on the little blower about a third open. I put doors on mine that ran in a track to raise up and down -- cut them back off too - they would not work when everything got hot (that was when it was at 2000). So I made some castable doors for mine that hinge from the sides and they are working well. I left a 2" opening on the bottom of the doors for gas to escape from. Nice looking job - you will like that burner!

October 23, 2010
11:26 pm
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Gene C
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Looks great. Russ J. had a similiar setup in that he could make the forge taller by just stacking more fire bricks. Always thought that clever whoever thought it up.

I have a cast refractory lined forge, about 5" ID and 11" long and found using the soft brick for front or back really increased the efficiency, only they crumble easily. Just happened to have some from some long ago forge building experiment.

This is a common garden variety venturi burner NWBA forge. I have used blue stove pipe on most of my forges. To contain the castable refractory.

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October 24, 2010
1:56 am
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Larry L
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Man I dont know about these ribbon burners... I can see all kinds of problems already

Keep in mind this is a pretty big forge ( see picture of pop can for scale) so the size could be an issue..

First thing is I dont know if I can get any work done around this thing... I mean it doenst make any noise at all.... i am used to the roar of a venturi burner and this thing is spooky quite

The other thing is the tuning and heat.... I mean i know this is the first time I fired the forge (and this is the first blown forge I have ever built) but I am going to have to do something about the performance of this thing... I mean it took ten whole minutes to get to 2400 deg... 20 minutes it was at a 2650-2700.... I mean jeez the thing is basically useless I was only running it on 15 PSI though

At least the adjustable height stand works as planned...

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Whatever you are, be a good one.
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October 24, 2010
3:24 am
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Grant
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Isn't that the same burner and blower that Dave Hammer couldn't get heat out of, or is that a bigger burner? Looking good Larry! Hope the roof stays in place.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 24, 2010
3:32 am
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Dave Hammer
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Larry....

Is that the 112 or 168 CFM blower? If it's the 112, I'm going to have to take another pass with it.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 24, 2010
4:05 am
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Grant
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Dave: Yeah, zooming in, I can see it's the 168 now.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 24, 2010
4:24 am
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Larry L;3527 wrote: Man I dont know about these ribbon burners... I can see all kinds of problems already

Keep in mind this is a pretty big forge ( see picture of pop can for scale) so the size could be an issue..

First thing is I dont know if I can get any work done around this thing... I mean it doenst make any noise at all.... i am used to the roar of a venturi burner and this thing is spooky quite

The other thing is the tuning and heat.... I mean i know this is the first time I fired the forge (and this is the first blown forge I have ever built) but I am going to have to do something about the performance of this thing... I mean it took ten whole minutes to get to 2400 deg... 20 minutes it was at a 2650-2700.... I mean jeez the thing is basically useless I was only running it on 15 PSI though

At least the adjustable height stand works as planned...

If you add another layer of kaowool and you'll probably cut your gas use by 1/3 to 1/2. well worth the additional $. Also consider ITC100 in place of the rigidizer.

JE

October 24, 2010
4:31 am
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Grant
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John, I think if there was that much heat being lost through the fiber-blanket the shell would have to be red hot.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 24, 2010
5:33 am
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Lee Cordochorea
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Methinks the heat is being lost out the front & back. Couple hundred square inches there...

No matter where you go... there you are.

October 24, 2010
1:21 pm
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JNewman
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Forge looks good Larry. All this damn billable work is getting in the way of modifying my forge.

October 24, 2010
3:16 pm
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Larry L
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Geez... I figured you of all people would get the sarcasm John E! to 2400 deg in 10 min? 2700deg operation temp? shoot I am a happy camper!

As for refractory the floor is 2600deg brick with a single layer of #8 kaowool and then a 3/4" kiln shelf on top of that for durability... the top/sides is a double layer of #8 1" kaowool... I plan on a ITC 100 coat but figured I would have better luck painting it on after the kaowool set up with the rigidizer

The only thing I dont like is this is the first forge I have ever built that left an exposed kaowool blanket to the interior and It seems like awful fragile stuff Is there a good way to repair the blanket if you tear a chunk out of the roof or do you just replace the whole lining every time?

Dave as grant said this is the bigger 168 blower and its hard to say after only having the thing going once but I would say its way more air than I need.... I can choke the blower down all the way and see little difference... I did put a 1" hole in the manifold leading from the blower with a valve to bleed off air like John recommended.. I would say that it should have been bigger too.... This is the 190 size burner from Pine Ridge which is suppose to be for 1 to 1.75 cubic feet of interior forge area. Im not sure what I am but would guess about 1.25 Cubic feet I would guess from your pictures yours is about a third of that? and if I remember you have there mini burner right? Did you call those guys and see if they had any suggestions?

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 24, 2010
10:01 pm
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Larry,

Kaowool repair is easy when you use ITC 100. ITC 100 is a ceramic coating that hardens when heated to working temp. When you nick the edges, just add some more ITC to the spot when the forge is cold. Off the floor, I like to have one row of hard brick up the forge sides before starting the kaowool just because I always seem to be sticking steel into the sides.

John

October 24, 2010
10:20 pm
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Grant;3539 wrote: John, I think if there was that much heat being lost through the fiber-blanket the shell would have to be red hot.

Grant,

Years ago, I spoke w/Art Jones about his forges. His take on insulation was that more is better. I have to concur having built some good, and less efficient forges. The burner and insulation are the two most important considerations.

I hope that when Mike Neely builds the NWBA forges (spring 2011 conf?) he uses at least 2"of kaowool. I'm not a fan of paying the propane company any more money than we have to.

Mike...I'll be happy to help if you'd like. Give me a buzz.

John

October 24, 2010
10:56 pm
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Bill Cottrell
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Larry I think that will likely be all the heat you will need there buddy:happy:. Looks like you used 1x3 tubing for your air riser - good idea. Just my opinion, but I think blown forges are the only way to go really. I've tried the venturi types, hard to tune most of them, some just don't get hot enough, and they are noisy. Blown forges are easy to tune - just add gas and air till you get a good burn - not hot enough? Add more gas and air. I was curing the castable in my doors with short burns - now I need to crank it up and go for hot.

October 25, 2010
5:06 am
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Lynn Gledhill
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Larry, what are you using for a propane orifice on your blown forge? I looks like it is going to work great!:stomp:I've built a couple of atmospheric forges but it looks like blown is the way to go. I visited Dave Thompson's shop the other day and blown forges is all he's got. I appreciate your help... Also I got lucky and got in your tomahawk hands on class and had a lot of fun:bounce:at the conference. Thanks, guys for your knowledge and the sharing of it:D
Lynn

October 25, 2010
5:49 am
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Larry L
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Lynn Gledhill;3563 wrote: Larry, what are you using for a propane orifice on your blown forge? I looks like it is going to work great!:stomp:I've built a couple of atmospheric forges but it looks like blown is the way to go. I visited Dave Thompson's shop the other day and blown forges is all he's got. I appreciate your help... Also I got lucky and got in your tomahawk hands on class and had a lot of fun:bounce:at the conference. Thanks, guys for your knowledge and the sharing of it:D
Lynn

Thanks Lynn... I had a lot of fun doing the Tomahawk hands on... As for an orifice I have a 1/4" needle valve in the fuel train so I more or less have an adjustable orifice... I dont know much about blown forges but it seems to me some sort of adjustable fuel limiter is mandatory ... a fixed orifice would not allow you to "tune" very effectively

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 25, 2010
2:07 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Larry.... your comments to me were

***
Dave as grant said this is the bigger 168 blower and its hard to say after only having the thing going once but I would say its way more air than I need.... I can choke the blower down all the way and see little difference... I did put a 1" hole in the manifold leading from the blower with a valve to bleed off air like John recommended.. I would say that it should have been bigger too.... This is the 190 size burner from Pine Ridge which is suppose to be for 1 to 1.75 cubic feet of interior forge area. Im not sure what I am but would guess about 1.25 Cubic feet I would guess from your pictures yours is about a third of that? and if I remember you have there mini burner right? Did you call those guys and see if they had any suggestions?
***

I couldn't find the reference about bleeding off air from the manifold. Where is it? My forge is about .75 cubic feet. I sent Pine Ridge an email, asking questions, but they didn't answer right away. After I had the forge working better with a more powerful blower, they responded, but without more suggestions for the smaller blower. It's possible that.... if the blower is allowed to move a bit more of air (with a bleed off in the manifold), it might maintain more pressure in the manifold. That is not intuitive to me, but I'll give it a try.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

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