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2:32 pm
July 30, 2010
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Well here's the opportunity Canadian and American citizens has been scareaming for . A chance to vote for the good teachers.
The "hands on instructor" is paid by the students. If the teacher is good they attract more students and some money. If not ...
The instructors needn't come from afar. There are plenty pros and amateurs in our association who can "fire" up a crowd.
2:45 pm
NWBA Member
August 7, 2010
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Good Morning,
I have seen quite a change in attitude toward the conferences. I have seen when most people would concentrate on what the main demonstrators are trying to convey/teach and hands-on was either not there or it was one or two classes. What I see now is that it is less expensive for someone to attend a conference and take a hands-on class than it is to take any of the classes that are listed in the calendar. I think I see quite a few who almost never attend or only briefly, the main demonstrator area. The interest is more on the hands-on classes than on the demonstrators.
I see this as the way the pendulum moves when there are two meetings a year. Inexpensive education is starving.
Vancouver Island Blacksmith Association has their own shop at Luxton Fairgrounds. The shop is open to any/all members on Monday and Wednesday evenings. Sometimes the attendance is a little scarce, but lately we seem to have minimum of 3 people at each forge. What are they making?, scrap metal out of scrap metal, newbys always seem to start with a knife or sword made from mild steel (they won't entertain the thought that the exercise is futile, until the end when they have to start again, maybe). They are learning how metal moves. The instructors are the senior members who attend. This knife making will have to change because our President, Ray Orchard, just received a phone call from the R.C.M.P regarding some/one boy who brought his knife to school. "Where did you get that knife? I made it at the Blacksmith Shop"
Life doesn't change.
Neil
As long as we are above our shoes, We know where we are.:happy:
3:10 pm
May 12, 2010
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Here's my two cents' worth:
Yes the students should have to pay a nominal fee - say, $25. Since the participants are selected by a lottery, perhaps a couple of the selectees could "win" free admission. One out of ten, perhaps? That adds the possibility of a free ride, something that might increase participation and somewhat defuse the issue of charging. Kinda like a win at iron in the hat.
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Those who work the hands-on classes should get paid for it, otherwise you don't have any control over how good a job they do. Those who really teach well have a skill/gift they are sharing for which they deserve compensation. Teaching is actually much more difficult that demonstrating.
Rich
Rich - The older I get, the better I used to be.
3:43 pm
April 6, 2010
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At the last conference, we recovered nearly half of the cost of providing hands-on instructors by charging what the board considered a modest fee of twenty dollars.
In a perfect world, the conference coordinator would have a nice long list of volunteer hands-on instructors, who would be willing to take the time to prepare a good class, provide the materials for himself and his students, and (we're talkin' perfect world here) the fuel too! Then it wouldn't cost the association or the students anything. Volunteer instructors, with the NWBA providing materials and fuel would be the best bet.
I noticed the same guys in several of the hands-on classes at the conference and have seen this before. This should not ever be allowed to happen. One hands-on class per conference should be the rule.
4:35 pm
March 22, 2010
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I think you could find people willing to teach Hands on workshops without payment.. When I agreed to for the last conference I didn't know that I would get paid.. I gave back what I got paid in the way of a donation and spending it at the auction..
I dont know about limiting people to one hands on... My feeling is if a person is using the conference to learn we should give as much opportunity as possible for a person to do so. I think the best balance is the participant should pay a small fee that will cover the cost of fuel and materials and the instructor should not be paid...
Someone said earlier that the main demonstrates should be paid... And I whole hardheartedly agree... Especially ones that are not from are area or members of the group. Not only do I think they should be paid well and we should cover lodging... I feel like charging them for conference and dinner fees is kind of an insult.. I mean your going to invite this person and then spring on them... oh by the way you and your wife need to register and pay for dinner... that will be $125?
The way I see it is its kind of a duty as a member to do what you can for our association. It exists for us and if the only goal is to take what you can in the form of free this or paid that we are lost in what we are really doing. the "whats in it for me" attitude has no place. We are here to help one another, be a community resource and further the craft. We need to be a stable, sustainable and grateful in our actions.
I know in a group of 400 people not everyone can or will step up and be selfless But if you feel "entitled" to get a free workshop at the conference or feel like the NWBA "owes" you something I think you need to get a grip... Its not about what the NWBA owes you its about what we can do for each other if we work together...
This is starting to feel like I am talking politics here... (My blood boils when talking about politics :banghead:)
My take is simple. I am not a founding member of the NWBA... I have not been around for decades and experienced all the ups and downs. I have only recently started contriubiting to the group in any volunteer way. But Its important to me. I am a Blacksmith through and through.. Even though I dont have the skill or experience of many of the group I feel accepted and understood by most. Its become a important part of my life.. The conferences are pretty much the only social event I look forward to and I feel obligated to do my part to instill that same feeling in the people just finding the group.
When Grant nominated me to run for the board I thought "What can I do?" But thats the wrong question... it should be "What can I do?"
The answer is pretty simple.... the smallest thing is 100% more than nothing at all.... If its just telling someone you met about the NWBA.... Promoting the conference to hobbyist smiths... Offering to haul or set up gear or clean up the kitchen area... What ever... We should focus on what we can give, If everyone gives what they can I am pretty sure we wont want for anything....
Oops.... kinda got off on a rant there...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
4:42 pm
NWBA Member
May 6, 2010
Offline
Initially I thought that the organization should shoulder the class burden, but if that is not reasonable any longer, perhaps there should be one class free for beginners, and then charge for the other classes. Paying for the instructor's materials seems reasonable. Making sure the same people do not get enrolled over and over in the classes would be another goal.
4:54 pm
I think many of you are lucky you did not face this attitude when you were learning.
5:13 pm
NWBA Member
Board Member
April 26, 2010
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Fee for a hands-on is not unreasonable to me, but I've got a good day-job in these hard times. There have been years when an extra $20 would've kept my name out of the jar.
I LIKE seeing young men and women in the hands-on classes, but I know an extra $20 can keep them out.
Maybe there could be some kind of "ghost mentoring" program. What if I (and maybe others) chip in an extra $20 when I (or we) can afford it - to cover a fellow smith (or smith-in-the-making) having a harder financial time than I? Not sure how it would get doled out. Some kind of micro-scholarship program?
No matter where you go... there you are.
5:35 pm
March 18, 2010
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Good ideas Lee! Currently we have an "ASP" grant program that gives $1000.00 to individual smiths for "away" programs (two per year). We could decide to to put that into a "need based" grant program for hands-on. People who can afford it should pay and those who take multiple classes should pay, but it would be nice to have a fund for those who cannot afford it. Ask and you receive, no questionnaire.
This would also shift the funding from the conference budget to a funded program. That is important because we expect the conference chairs keep a tight budget and at least break even.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
5:38 pm
May 28, 2010
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My two cents worth. There's alot of good imput is this issue & I would have to agree with message #28 the most. If we had this micro-scholarship idea, it would need to be posted well enough in advance that members could apply for it before the conference.
5:40 pm
March 18, 2010
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jack frost;3647 wrote: I think many of you are lucky you did not face this attitude when you were learning.
Jack: The only "attitude" here is open discussion of an issue. Why don't you give your views rather than worrying about the views of others.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
5:42 pm
April 12, 2010
Offline
No fee
No payment
just like the old days.
but
i like the idea of only 1 hands on class per Paying Member, per conf.
if we were to keep the fee, offer to wave the 20 dollar fee in trade for 2 hours of conf related work, set up, tear down, cleaning, or staffing the registration table or tshirt table.
I also wouldn't be apposed to waving the conf fee for hands on demonstrators at least for the day of service.
how about a tip jar?
I cant even remember how many conf i have spent busting my ass helping out over the weekend for nothing in return.
now, don't take this wrong because i'm not asking for anything and never have. It is our duty as members to give back to the assn and i am glad to do it.
there will always be 2 types of members the ones that will walk up to you with a smile on their face and ask how can i help and the ones looking for a free ride.
I too remember when the focus of the conf was the featured demos and there was little or nothing going on in the hands on area until midnight madness.
at my first conf when i was 10 i stood at the back on top of a folding chair all weekend watching mark pierce. I don't think i even realized there was anything other than a demo area.
5:46 pm
if the group is starving for cash then charge. but if you have made profit. then WTF?
sorry larry and all.BUT they paid to go to the conference and part of that has always been the hands on .
That fee for the conference included the right to put your name in the hat for a hands on.
Whoever is giving the hands on misses the conference.
I remember going to Alan's and not seeing any of Vlads demo not because I was out back but because I was demonstrating to some.Great but I was glad to no pay the fee to go and miss the demo.
Still No one gets anything for free.
Yea right.
5:49 pm
NWBA Member
October 29, 2010
Offline
PAY – Some, None or All
is what we started with here. It’s easy to come up with a multitude of ‘others’. Remember “Two Blacksmiths, three opinions.” Its part of what makes this group so much fun.
Volunteer instructors – no group ever has enough volunteers for everything that must be done. The old axiom is “If you suggest it be done by volunteers, you are on the top of the list. What’s you class plan?”
I like the idea of only one class per person, there are so few slots that if you won one, that should be plenty.
Special free entry for financially disadvantaged – It would be nice, however, who decides and how? Do you have to bring your bank statement? Gee, maybe we could pay for their gas and a motel room? This is kindly meant but ungovernable.
This subject was started by the lady who was upset that her daughter had to pay for the class, that it wasn’t covered by the Conference fee. She said this during the Business Meeting at Dinner. Why didn’t she complain about paying for the dinner? It’s something extra that you pay for. We all pay for the conference, so the demonstrations are open to all. Only some get the hands-on classes, so only some should pay. Can’t afford it? Well you can’t afford to buy those tongs you want either. And other members shouldn’t have to give you money so that you can buy them.
There’s nothing to stop you from sitting close to the rope and monitoring the class for free and using it as a demo. So you are never totally cut off from the information.
So I vote that the students pay the full price for the class.
5:50 pm
No fee
No payment
just like the old days.
but
i like the idea of only 1 hands on class per Paying Member, per conf.
PS with good reason grant
7:03 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline
jack frost;3653 wrote: if the group is starving for cash then charge. but if you have made profit. then WTF?
sorry larry and all.BUT they paid to go to the conference and part of that has always been the hands on .
That fee for the conference included the right to put your name in the hat for a hands on.Whoever is giving the hands on misses the conference.
I remember going to Alan's and not seeing any of Vlads demo not because I was out back but because I was demonstrating to some.Great but I was glad to no pay the fee to go and miss the demo.
Sorry Jack BUT
It's not pay or free.
It's the people taking the class pay or does everyone pay
So your in favor or raising the conference fees by $10-$15 for everyone so the hands on can be "Free?"
Still No one gets anything for free.
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:04 pm
NWBA Member
April 8, 2010
Offline
Who Should Pay for the Conference Hands-on Classes?
Sounds like an easy question until you start sweating the details
From the demonstrators point of view:
I’ve always been totally impressed with every hands on demo I’ve watched. This isn’t magic but rather comes from the demonstrator’s thoughtfulness and preparation. There is no doubt that they’ve all spent many hours getting ready to teach. There is nothing more frustrating then having people sign up for your class and basically sit and watch while those who didn’t make the cut and really wanted to learn are side lined. By charging you set up a screening which hopefully cuts out some of that dead weight.
From the students point of view:
How cool is it to bring home a nice forging and be able to share it with friend and say “I made that” Some things are priceless. The more important part is gaining confidence and raising your skill level, another tool to put in your bag. All of this speaks to what the organization is there for, continuing education and sustainability of our profession.
From the NWBA point of view: Format, fairness and cost
For some reason I’m thinking we had 6 hands-on classes. Some of these classes were “open” and these demonstrators were not paid while those who demo a project were paid $300. I do not get the reasoning behind that since it would be easier to instruct a prepared forging. I.m also think that $300 is to much to pay. I would think a more reasonable price would be conference cost, some travel, and materials. This cost would help insure quality and commitment from the demonstrators with all paid equally. So if we had 6 demonstrators at say $150 each plus $600 for fuel, materials, etc that’s $1,500 divided by 36 students and you get a little over $40 per. Because we all do get some benefits from the hands on demo the entire cost should not be shouldered by the students. Lets say $25 per class with a limit of one class. That’s a shortage of $600 and if we have 180 paid attendees it’s $3 (paid from our conference fee towards the hands-on area) for anyone who wants watch … damn cheap. So if you want to take a class and you say you cant afford it then guess what…. You cant afford it. Maybe you should make something before the conference and sell it for $25 so you can make something better next time!
Joe Elliott
7:14 pm
March 22, 2010
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Sorry Jack I read your first post and not the last one
I would agree best would be no fee no payment if the group could absorb the cost of supplies and propane. Maybe the case is that with no fee paid we could. I still feel it is not unreasonable to expect participants to cover the fuel and steel consumed. It's not like this is viewed as a money maker
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:27 pm
April 6, 2010
Offline
Might try auctioning off a few hands-on slots for the following conference! Might raise enough to cover all the fuel and materials.
7:58 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline
You know another thing to consider. I put a lot of work into my hands on. I built five sets of tools each with about $35 worth of tool steel.
I also made about 30 hawks in the prior weeks so I felt prepared. So yeah I spent hours. BUT. I sold every set of tools including my own and dang ne'er every "practice" hawk I made. At the end of the demo I "made" about a grand. I did not look at it as a money maker but I sure don't feel bad about how it turned out. I think any person doing a workshop should approach it the same way. You may get stuck with all the stuff but chances are you motivate the students and get them excited
have a good project you'll do fine
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
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