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Who Should Pay for the Conference Hands-on Classes?
October 29, 2010
8:36 pm
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OK the purpose of the NWBA is to encourage blacksmithing.

What is more encouraging than the hands on classes that allow someone with a mild curiosity to get bitten?
Has anyone seen someone come out of the hands on with a big smile and a sense of achievement that might not have done it had they never picked up a hammer?
I thought that was where new smiths started.
How many of you paid for your first hits.

There is an old maxim. "The first hit is for free"

So at least allow all new members to get a free entry to the draw for classes. at least.

October 29, 2010
8:37 pm
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Grant
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OK, to encourage the young 'uns, how about we make the classes free to those under 21? We need solid ideas, not just emotions.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 29, 2010
8:45 pm
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Grant
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jack frost;3661 wrote: OK the purpose of the NWBA is to encourage blacksmithing.

What is more encouraging than the hands on classes that allow someone with a mild curiosity to get bitten?
Has anyone seen someone come out of the hands on with a big smile and a sense of achievement that might not have done it had they never picked up a hammer?
I thought that was where new smiths started.
How many of you paid for your first hits.

There is an old maxim. "The first hit is for free"

So at least allow all new members to get a free entry to the draw for classes. at least.

That's fair enough Jack. Part of the answer to that is that we do have the "open forge" area which is 100% free, open during most of the conference where you can do what ever you want under supervision. Also, anyone may observe the hands-on classes and then try their hand in the open forge.

Just another log on the fire.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 29, 2010
8:48 pm
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"We need solid ideas, not just emotions."

Grant OK
Try going back and reading without your emotions in the way.
you will note a little bit that says

"So at least allow all new members to get a free entry to the draw for classes."

That seems pretty solid to me.
Frankly it is not just about the yung uns.
There are plenty out there over 21 who may like to get bitten.
Thanks
Ps I'll provide the tea bags for free next time.

October 29, 2010
9:03 pm
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Bob Johnson
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I voted for option 1/A, however we could offer a limited number of scholarships to those unable to pay for the full ride. In exchange, they would write up their experiences for publication, or do conference set-up and tear-down work, or both. Criteria, in addition to lack of funds would be age and intent. Younger person’s intent on making smithing a career would be an example of who to grant a free ride. Hobbyists and dilatants would likely be asked to pay their own way.

October 29, 2010
9:09 pm
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Grant
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jack frost;3664 wrote: "We need solid ideas, not just emotions."

Grant OK
Try going back and reading without your emotions in the way.
you will note a little bit that says

"So at least allow all new members to get a free entry to the draw for classes."

That seems pretty solid to me.
Frankly it is not just about the yung uns.
There are plenty out there over 21 who may like to get bitten.
Thanks
Ps I'll provide the tea bags for free next time.

That quote wasn't aimed at you Jack. Just want people to focus on constructive ideas. Don't worry Jack, I'm not emotionally involved in it, I just want to keep things moving forward.

OBTW: ALL members get "a free entry to the draw for classes" now.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 29, 2010
9:30 pm
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D_Evans
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I am able and willing to pay for hands on classes and demos. I think instructors/demo folks should be paid at least enough to cover their costs.
I also think there should be two or three low-key grants paid by our organization, with folks who need them drawn from a hat without any qualifications required.
When I was in college we were allowed to 'Audit' classes- Issued no materials and encourage not to ask questions. Just sit in the back and listen in. Maybe this is an option here?
The times in my life when I needed help I was too prideful to ask and would never have discussed my situation with anyone to see if I "Qualified".
The tough times we are all going through right now just serves to further bolster my ideas.
[Tenino] Dave

Dave

No one really listens to anyone else, and if you try it for a while you'll see why.
- Mignon McLaughlin

http://WinDancerKnives.com

October 29, 2010
9:43 pm
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Grant
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Thanks Dave! Yes, "auditing" the classes has always been an option. Pretty much the same rules apply that you mentioned.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 29, 2010
9:46 pm
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Larry L
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Could we maybe look at this as what else could we do to keep the hands on free to the participants? We need to come up with the dough but what if we had a means to do that? I was involved with another non profit group who would solicit funds from corporate donors for educational outreach. Not my idea of fun but is there something we could do? I am more than willing to help within my ability.

My experience is education is expensive because it's worth it. My first class was not free nor have I ever participated in any free class or workshop. I for one am happy to pay to further my understanding. I guess I assumed everyone else would see the value enough to shoulder a small expence.

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 29, 2010
10:28 pm
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Brad Roland
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I feel that we should raise the price of the tickets to help shoulder the cost, don't pay the instructors and let the students in for free. That said, I think it is also a good idea to make sure that everyone that is "intersted" gets a free shot instead of one person gettin all the free classes ... so to speak. Each conference is different and each class/list doesn't always have enough to fill the class, that's when I think it's ok for another student to take more than 1 free class.

I'm all for learning but I also know that the price of learning is expensive just like Larry said. That's why I don't mind a little higher ticket cost and let those folks that may not have enough money to pay, play ... that's how I got my start ... someone let me play for free and got me hooked. I don't think I would have paid someone $20 to show me how to hit, burn and cuss at myself ... LOL, I already have that part down!

Anyhow, just my 2 copper!
:stomp::banghead:

Brad Roland :hot:

October 29, 2010
10:45 pm
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Grant
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We're getting a little off base if you think about it. Most, if not all, of the hands-on classes are not for beginners, they are for people who have at least a little experience. The open forges (which are free) are the right place to hit your first blows on hot steel.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

October 29, 2010
10:56 pm
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Tom Ferry
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I think we are making this way to complicated. I can see a lot of valid viewpoints here and the NWBA should do its best to support them all. Which is easier said than done.

So the discussion of whether we should charge a small materials fee or not has grown into a larger topic of how to run the hands on classes altogether.
I think an approach to solving this issue begins with the hands on demonstrator and his or her pay. The last conference we payed them $300.00 each, personally I feel this is on the high side, not that they do not earn it or deserve it but I would go for paying them with a free conference including dinner, maybe even a free membership too. Right now we are granting a free membership to those whose auction item brings over $250 which is no different than their current pay.
So based on the instructor fees we can finance the hands on accordingly. Meaning if two instructors step up and take the free conference admission, then their hands on class is free to the membership, but if an out of town demonstrator or even a local one needs the funds and we are paying him or her then that is a class that must also require a small fee from those who are drawn to participate. Easy enough to label a jar accordingly.

Personally I feel this is all irrelevant anyway because if you are not drawn for hands on or can not afford the $20 lottery there is always midnight madness which in my experience always has a number of talented smiths ready to help out and instruct.

The complaint came from a woman whose child wanted to participate but could not pay the fee, maybe we need to set up one hands on class dedicated to 18 and under ran by someone willing to donate their time and energy to kids only.

October 29, 2010
11:12 pm
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WADE
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WADE WADE
I realize times are getting tougher...I can understand why people want
conference costs broken down so they can be participated in ''a-la-carte''.
BUT We gotta be on the same page re; VALUE OF THE HANDS-ON SHOPS.
No thinking person would think an organization could possibly continue to
function with only the ''old guard'' participating.
ONLY by encouraging new people to get involved in the craft, can we possibly
KEEP THIS GOOD THING GOING.
Who pays the shot....issa tuff question....BUT IT HASTA HAPPEN!
WADE WADE

October 29, 2010
11:19 pm
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Gene C
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Wade, are you calling me old?:happy::spin::happy:

October 29, 2010
11:25 pm
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WADE
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GENE,
YOU ARE OLDER-THAN-DIRT....BUT YOU LOOK GOOD IN THAT PICTURE....
WADE

October 30, 2010
12:01 am
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Gene C
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Thanks Wade, picture circa 1980-1985 or there abouts, Phil baldwin damascus workshop at Jaquay's Fort Worden shop, Pt Townsend WA.

will look through my files for the original.

October 30, 2010
12:09 am
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Lynn Gledhill
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You can tell that I am still learning to use the website... Since I blogged something rather than continue the thread. Grant, I have found the open forging areas a bit hard to get into. It may be that I look like a blacksmith, but when I showed up for the open forge at the appropriate time, I dang near got turned down for some younger looking fella. I like the idea of keeping the hands on free, maybe by charging a buck for a try for the drawing. I did notice that once it was explained that if you drew out for a hands on, you'd have to pay 20 dollars, there were a whole lot less tickets in the jars than at previous conferences.
Lynn

October 30, 2010
1:54 am
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D Lisch
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HI FOLKS it's good to see such lively debate. For more of the story, some years ago I was on the board I was in charge of putting on the hands on classes this was before the mobile school on wheels we now have, so to have classes first we would need to get enough tools. This went like this, "Hay Larry can you bring an anvil?" "Hay Tom can you bring a forge?" "Hay Moe can you bring an anvil and teach a class?" This was a pain in the butt so with the help of the board and the president at the time, Terry Carson we made the trailer happen. I think it was money and time well spent. But I was not done, at the time we would teach 3 classes at each conference and not pay the teacher. I taught a few of these free classes. let me tell you and I know Larry will back this up, there is a lot more that goes into one of these class then one might think. So I thought it would be a good idea to pay the teacher and I pushed hard to make it happen, 600 to have 3 classes good classes it is not much but as the guy calling joe blow to say 'Hay would like to teach a class?" I found that the 200 made this task much easier to complete. folks were quick to say OK, and they would do a better job, teach a better class. I don't know why, that's just how it is.
So, I do not care if we charge for the class but I feel it would be a mistake to undo all of the hard work to create a teaching area and I think it would be a set back to the very good hands on thing we have going now to stop paying the teacher the $200 for teaching.

October 30, 2010
2:53 am
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Reefera4m
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This topic is of great interest ot me as I'm a webmaster of another 'hobby' site. The issues are similiar - who pays for the website, the 'gatherings' (similiar to hammer-ins), etc. Historically and currently all cost are covered by either donations, auctions (of donated items) or 'contests' where the contestants pay a nominal fee to enter ($5) and half of the pot goes to the winner and half to the host.

Unless we decide to be come a legitimate 'not for profit' organization, this keeps the gov't out of our affairs. It also limits our liability - no money, no liability.

I don't know what the legal set-up is for the NWBA or the Conference. If the NWBA and its Conference has legal standing as a 'Non-Profit Corporation' under Washington's Title 24 RCW then I would support the 'pay for play' concept. Those that benefit should pay. This may adversely affect participation and subsidizing the classes may benefit the entire NWBA.

If the NWBA/Conference is not a legitimate 'Non-Profit Corporation' then the question of collecting monies and paying instructors can become a very serious issue. These include the very real issues of taxes and insurance. Not only are the organizers of the Conference potentially liable but the entire membership may be held liable as well.

October 30, 2010
2:56 am
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Lee Cordochorea
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I'm just a hobbyist, and I'm very much the newcommer at this fine table,

But I CAN do math...:nerd:

In most workshops (not at Conference, but paid classes type stuff) the students are paying $15-25 per hour and the instructor is getting $90-150 per hour. Or more.

I would call the $300 more of a "stipend" than pay.

No matter where you go... there you are.

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