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3:00 am
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
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Dave,
The question is not whether we should pay the instructors or not and it seems most of us feel that they should be compensated in some way for their time whether that be pay or free admission.
The discussion of paying the instructors however does revolve around the final cost of operating the hands on area. So should those who have been drawn to participate in the Hands-on Classes be expected to pay a small nominal fee in order for the NWBA to recoup some of the costs involved or should the NWBA just eat those costs.
It just doesn't seem fair to me for the group as a whole to cover the costs of a few. We are already providing fuel, tools and sometimes material during midnight madness. If you do not want the small fee come play there.
4:39 am
March 18, 2010
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Hey Dave! Thanks from all of us for taking on this job.
I know you'll bring a lot of energy and imagination to the program. Thanks for stepping up!
The "all-up" cost to the association for the hands on classes is very close to $50.00 per student. Last time we asked for $20.00 from each participant. This represents a $30.00 subsidy from the association. I don't mind the association paying part of the cost, but at some point I think that the person benefiting should pay something.
It should be understood that these classes are rarely a persons first introduction to blacksmithing. These are not basic blacksmithing classes, they require a minimum level of proficiency.
Let's remember that there are people and facilities available during the entire conference where beginners can beat iron and get instruction. So I don't believe that should be part of this discussion.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
5:01 am
NWBA Member
June 17, 2010
Offline
Grant;3672 wrote: We're getting a little off base if you think about it. Most, if not all, of the hands-on classes are not for beginners, they are for people who have at least a little experience. The open forges (which are free) are the right place to hit your first blows on hot steel.
Thank you for clarifying this, Grant. After reading several responses, I was wondering if the discussion included both categories.
The hands-on classes are like a gem within the conference. Although I have never attended one, nor taught one, I see their value and are glad that they are offered.
With every conference I have attended, I have been amazed at how smoothly it is all run, in no small part due to volunteers. It is probably due to the diligent efforts of the volunteers that the conference fees are kept so low. There is usually one bit of information I get during the conference that makes up for the cost of admission; the rest is bonus. And there is even a dinner to look forward to! With all the hard work already being done by volunteers, I am reluctant to ask for more work and more volunteers.
It seems that it would be fair to offer some compensation to the instructors who offer these classes. Then it is a question of how much compensation. Free conference admission? Writing "Teacher" on their button? It is a good start. $200 does not seem unreasonable either.
The next issue is: Should the cost of the class be shouldered by its participants, shared with the organization, or paid for by the organization (all of us)? Is $20 too much to ask from the participants? If it were $10, would that be more suitable for those who wish to attend?
Without knowing some information, such as the average cost of teaching a class, the number of hours for preparation and the popularity of the classes taught, it is difficult to make a decision. These are typically four hour classes, correct? I feel that the organization should cover instructors' time (added to the conference fees, for it is part of the conference) and the participants should cover the cost of materials (including prepped materials, propane and/or coal), for they are the ones who benefit the most. This may be on an individual class basis. A damascus class may cost $50, but a chisel-making class may only cost $10 (for example).
I'd like to read more comments from people who have taught these classes and those who attended them. Some very good posts have been added which address some of these topics.
5:20 am
March 22, 2010
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This seems like a no brainer but I dont think it has been proposed as a solution..
Why dont we make just make it a "suggested donation" when we pull the tickets? Just come right out and say.. Hey the cost of this is around $50 per student, If you can afford to do so please contribute to help offset the costs incurred providing this workshop.... I really feel that if approached in that manner you end up with at least an average of $20 per student kicked in to the kiddy... If I knew it was costing the group $50 for me to be in the class... I would kick in at least $50...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
5:26 am
March 22, 2010
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You make some good points Dave... I know past members have worked hard to get us to this point, spent countless hours. I have no problem with "this is how it used to be, it might not be perfect but its better than it was"
I think the important part is we keep whats best for the current bunch of NWBA'ers in focus while looking to whats going to best serve the future of the group. Its obvious that there are a lot of strong feelings.... Which is always good... It shows we give a damn about whats going on and its important enough to speak up... That we dont all agree is what makes it work.. If every one of us thought the same.... well you would be a boring bunch of folks to hang out with!
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
5:42 am
I've been reading this thread and I have a hard time buying into the premise that hands-on instruction needs to be funded by the participants. We, as a non profit educational orginazition, owe it to ourselves to educate and perpetuate the craft. As such, as long as we are operating in the black, we should continue to present as many opportunities to beginning/intermediate level smiths as possible without additional monetary compensation. Many of these people only get meaningful one-on-one instruction twice a year.
How many of you have noticied the increasing number of people who have applied for the "hands-on" classes, and the number of participants in the "open forge" area, at all times...day and night? To me, this is indicative of a real desire to learn and improve skills.
We need to culture that desire to learn, and not charge additional for it. We should want members to continue their membership because they feel that they can grow their skills and feel the sharing that the blacksmithing community is known for. It makes them want to come to conferences because it's a great deal, and to share the camaraderie.
It's all about education, and having fun blacksmithing, not making money.
JE
5:55 am
March 22, 2010
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John Emmerling;3694 wrote: I've been reading this thread and I have a hard time buying into the premise that hands-on instruction needs to be funded by the participants. We, as a non profit educational orginazition, owe it to ourselves to educate and perpetuate the craft. As such, as long as we are operating in the black, we should continue to present as many opportunities to beginning/intermediate level smiths as possible without additional monetary compensation. Many of these people only get meaningful one-on-one instruction twice a year.
How many of you have noticied the increasing number of people who have applied for the "hands-on" classes, and the number of participants in the "open forge" area, at all times...day and night? To me, this is indicative of a real desire to learn and improve skills.
We need to culture that desire to learn, and not charge additional for it. We should want members to continue their membership because they feel that they can grow their skills and feel the sharing that the blacksmithing community is known for. It makes them want to come to conferences because it's a great deal, and to share the camaraderie.It's all about education, and having fun blacksmithing, not making money.
JE
I agree John..... And its not about making money... if it was about asking for the hands on workshops to turn a profit, or even just break even... This would be a diffrent discussion...
What is the conference fee for a single person? $45 for a single day? So if that person takes one hands on class that costs the NWBA $50 for supplies How exactly is that making money?
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
6:11 am
Larry L;3695 wrote: I agree John..... And its not about making money... if it was about asking for the hands on workshops to turn a profit, or even just break even... This would be a diffrent discussion...
What is the conference fee for a single person? $45 for a single day? So if that person takes one hands on class that costs the NWBA $50 for supplies How exactly is that making money?
My point is that as long as we are in the "black" in general, some programs such as the "hands-on" shoud be considered as a 'lost leader' to keep the membership interested, educated, and productive to ensure continuing membership/conference participation. It's ok that "hands-on" may lose some money. Overall, the membership is up, members are happy that they feel they are getting a good deal, learning, and having fun.
JE
6:21 am
March 22, 2010
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I guess its just how you feel. I feel like I should be accountable to cover my share of costs. I dont feel its reasonable for others to shoulder the burden of my expense. If I want to take the class... I would expect to pay for the opportunity (privilege really). I dont want a hand out...
What worthwhile education comes at no cost?
Anyway I am going to quit jumping in.... You all know how I feel. Im going to go play someplace else. I'll support anything that is sustainable and has the NWBA's goals and interests at heart.
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
6:40 am
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
Offline
John,
I feel the participants should cover at least some of the costs, however if we are willing to limit the number of hands on activities so that we can remain in the black I have no problem with the NWBA covering all expenses. I know this last conference had a large number of hands on classes and I believe that is why the fee was instituted, maybe Grant can give us a reason how the fee came about. The hands on stuff is great but if there is the potential to drag any conference into the red then there is an issue that must be fixed, whether it be charging the participants or reducing the number of hands on classes.
Glad to see we can all agree to disagree with no name calling, lol:bounce:
2:15 pm
NWBA Member
October 29, 2010
Offline
I have been coming to these events for many years, my skill level is only at the beginner level, because this is just a occasional hobby for me.
I noticed the new $20 dollar charge and felt it was still a good deal, I also noticed it did not stop the classes from filling up and if the class did fill up, there was also the free class next to it, with another six or so stations. So it looks like we expanded the hands on area by adding a paying area to the free area.
To me that was a great addition!
When I look at what I would have got for one $20 dollar class
Use of the NBNA tools
Use of the anvils
Use of the forges
Use of the vices
All things that had to be paid for, hauled, set up and stored somewhere.
(on a side note I helped set up the stations and break it all down)
Plus, having great instructors for the classes!
I feel we should pay the instructors, if they decide to donate it back or spend it at the auction, that should be their choice. It is always easier to get a volunteer, if you give them something.
If some one cannot afford the $20, I like the idea of trading that for time to help at the conference, selling shirts, or working it off. The event always needs help.
This is a great event and between the main event and the hands on there is lots to watch and learn from.
Craig Flynn
3:33 pm
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
Offline
Well this will be fun at your next board meeting. for the record I have volunteered to organize the hands on classes for the Spring Conference only as tim has stepped down from the board. So I said I would handle it. I think that it would be a good time to work with whoever is the new head of education to show then how to organize the hands on. I will always help out wherever I can. Larry, I think this would be a good job for you or Tom, you might enjoy being head of this as our newest board member. By the way, congrats on that. So as the guy putting on the hands on classes I will work with what ever rules the new board gives me and with whatever budget they give me and thats how this works. there is a set amount of cash we can spend on education and is up to who is in charge to get as much done with that as he can. Tim did a very good job and should be commended for his efforts but the reason that we are having this talk is that spending on education got out of hand. I think we have spent as much 3000 dollars on hands on classes at some of these conferences. hands on as good as it is for the group as a whole must be kept on a budget. I think that is the bottom line so if in order to stay within a budget, lets say 1000 dollars per conference, we need to ask the participants to chip in this would allow the person putting classes together to offer a few more classes while still giving the teacher 250 I think it is now for teaching the classes. It is a tough call to make and I look to our board to make the right one for what's best for the whole group
D Lisch
http://www.davidlisch.com
3:35 pm
I'm with JoHn Emmerling.
I have a question.
I missed the fact there was a charge for hands on at stevenson cause I wasn't going to take one of those classes.So I was wondering what the "lady who complained" was on about.
But apparently between the Mt vernon and this conference the decision had been made to charge
At what stage was that decided?
did I miss the meeting.
The lady at the dinner had all the right to be wondering. Who's decision was it?
WHY?
this debate has been framed as " the lady complained" but it should really be about how the decision to start charging was arrived at in the first place.
Who and WHY decided to charge.
That was the change. explain that change before pretending that the debate starts with someone complaining. the reason she complained seems valid. The game had changed.
there was a list of several options. funny enough it did not include a discussion on just changing how much was paid.
this is not a for profit organisation.
those that want to make profit from selling tools should realise there is always a bigger market when you allow others to participate.
if some will argue that the open forges are the place to get a "first hit".
well then let the NWBA set up a station in BSA to ensure there is an open forge where they can play. without wondering if that forge is there for them to play on.
I say this because I have watched what does go on and do see that some stand back because they don't seem to be comfortable with using someone else's forge or something.
I know this is a ramble of a letter so I will ask again . clearly, without any confusion.
WHO , WHY and WHEN did charging for hands on come into this.
4:20 pm
April 6, 2010
Offline
I'm not completely sure of the numbers, but most of the conferences we have had in the time I have been on the board (5 years) have not made a profit. If not for our auction revenues, we would be loosing lots of money. Yes we are a non-profit. But, we can't just spend until we have no more money.
Looking at the volume of conversation on this thread should make you realize why board meetings take 4-6 hours! These conversations will help a bunch in figuring out what direction to go. I can assure you that the board spent a lot of time discussing this issue. It was a split decission.
Good to have Tom Ferry on board. As you can see, he will be a great advocate for the members. Thanks to Dave, too, for stepping up for the spring conference.
4:34 pm
NWBA Member
October 29, 2010
Offline
I'm involved in a annual conference on a completely different kind of event and if it was not for our sponsors, we would never breaks even.
Maybe we should tell our members before the auction, how much we are short of breaking even, before the auction. I'm assuming, I'm like a lot of the people in the audance, that is clueless.
Our Nonprofit event should at least, break even. Which is not much of a profit.
4:38 pm
NWBA Member
August 1, 2010
Offline
OK, I'll write this here now, I sent it privately to Grant last night when the board crashed.
I hate fees, and think education and participation are great, BUT in the real world if we want to have *more* of something, it has to make economic sense.
So I vote for people to pay for hands-on where possible. I'm all for lotteries for free hands-on, discounts/free for people who bring auction stuff, etc. Presenters not paid or paid very little, unless they came a long way at our behest - perhaps we can pay some expenses. Presenters get free admission.
The point being that if hands-on demos are self supporting, then overall admission can be kept low. And if hands-on demos are self supporting, we can try to have more of them.
That said, the cost of doing the hands-on needs to be low - and what's low for me is probably not low for other people.
Finally, as irksome as it is, maybe we should allow for hands-on demos to be sponsored - somebody puts up say 1/2 the cost of a hands-on, lowering by 1/2 what everybody else pays, in exchange for being assured entry? [Example: Maybe I'd pay 1/2 the club's cost of a demo, in exchange for being sure to get a seat, and everybody else pays $10 instead of $20. Some folks would want it announced. Others would want to be anonymous.]
4:55 pm
September 18, 2010
Offline
I am new here and just learning to blacksmith. Unfortunately something came up that I could not attend the conference this year so with that being said I would be more than willing to pay for the classes that I chose to attend in full since I am the one that is getting the education and nothing in life is free.
5:42 pm
NWBA Member
June 12, 2010
Offline
I really like seeing this kind of discussion. Makes me feel like I have more input than just talking to a few people at the conference. I voted for the half and half option. Yes, there could have been more choices, but.... :spin: There will always be those who cannot afford what they would like (damn it, I REALLY want a Ferrari) that's life. $20 is not too much, it, normally, would cover the cost of materials. Like some have said, you can still watch, and there is the open forge area if you want to hit some metal. If I am not mistaken, it used to be 'midnight madness', and it wasn't open until after the classes and demos were over. I went to the open area to try out the ribbon forge. There was an impromptue class being taught at the time , so I backed off. There are more things going on at the conference than just what is officially being offered. No matter what the decision is, there will always be someone that thinks it is wrong. I want to thank all who are participating in the use of the forum. It feels like it has crossed the critcal mass point of use. Ok I'm ready for the next BIG question:D
6:00 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
I'll add here that our conference fee is quite minimal, this last conference was $65.00! We want to make it possible for as many as possible to attend. California charges THREE TIMES THAT! They are very similar in size to us - around 500 members. Certainly, if we were to charge $175.00 for the conference, we could offer the hands-on for "free".
"Non-profit" does not mean we can operate at a loss, it only means that we cannot pay dividends to the "shareholders" the way a for-profit corporation does. If we did not generate a profit, our bank account would be at zero, right?
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
6:21 pm
March 18, 2010
Offline
Also note: In California, wives are $175.00 each and children are $175.00 each! We, on the other hand, charge $100.00 for a whole family! A member, wife and one child in California comes to $525.00! Still don't like paying $20.00 for a hands-on class?
So far 75% of the voting is in favor of the people taking the classes paying at least 1/2 the cost with the majority favoring them paying the whole cost.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
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