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Kraken 4B Control Problems...
October 5, 2012
2:02 am
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Dave Hammer
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Larry L.... Does your Nazel have the original muffler and muffler cone? If not, and the current parts restrict the air movement differently than the original parts, it would affect the behavior of the ram. I don't know if it would fix your problem, but if your current setup is not original, you might try making a change to allow a litlle more air to be moved through the muffler.

I do know, for sure, that if the air restriction is increased, the result is that the ram moves up more aggressively, so it makes sense to me that decreasing the air restriction through the muffler will produce the opposite effect.

If you try something like this, please post the results.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 5, 2012
2:19 am
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Larry L
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Hi Dave..

Yep it has the factory muffler and internal cone... I am going to tear it down soon and got through it again.. The only thing I can think of is the checks in the cushion tower.... I have tried changing the valve timing and the compressor side seems tight and correct... Not sure what else it might be.

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 5, 2012
5:12 am
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Dave Hammer
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I'm wondering.... if the bypass valve spring is weak, will it let more air in the bottom side than is intended?

If it does, it would push up the ram more forcefully at "partial down" treadle positions.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 5, 2012
1:05 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Larry

I just did a little experiment on my 1B. I put pressure (pushed up) on the valve stem (bypass valve) while I was pressing down a bit on the treadle. This would simulate having a stronger spring.... It moved the stroke down further, and seemed to shorten it.

Give this a try.

I can't try it on my larger hammer (3B) this morning because I burned up the coil on my magnetic starter a couple days ago and haven't replaced it yet....

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 5, 2012
3:33 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Update.... I wired a temporary switch for my 3B and played with it. I didn't get the same results as with the 1B, so I guess it's back to the drawing board. I still think that too much air may be getting into the lower end though. Gotta study that valving and air flow some more.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 5, 2012
8:03 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Larry.... I don't know if you have talked to Bob Bergman about this problem... This afternoon I sent him some questions. I will let you know if/when he answers... I have reached out to Mark Krause (through FaceBook), but haven't heard back yet. I also know another blacksmith (Ralph Sproul) that works on these machines.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 6, 2012
1:23 am
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Larry L
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I talked to Terry at Postville, Bob was out of the country when I called. Ive also talked to Mark Krause... Both gave me some things to try that didn't work. I think the check valve spring is worth looking into.. I have the thing apart making a new piston pin and bushing that where finished today. Maybe over the weekend I'll get it back together and see what I can do by increasing the pressure on that spring.

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 6, 2012
2:00 am
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Dave Hammer
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Larry

I'm curious to learn what Mark Krause and Terry suggested you try.

I'm not sure why I get different results between the 1B and the 3B when I mess with the bypass valve. Seems like they should be consistent with one another.

My 3B doesn't have the original muffler or muffler cone. The muffler cone has been replaced with a flat platter with holes drilled in it. The muffler is fabricated with pipe. It actually does a credible job in reducing sound. The platter has 19 holes that were all 1/2 inch in diameter. I drilled 11 of them out to 9/16ths of an inch to see if it would affect behavior. The hammer works a little differently, but it didn't affect the problem we are trying to address. I have asked Bob/Terry for measurments from their drawings that will let me calculate the amount of clear space that should actually be there.

I do know that if these types of hammers have difficulty pulling the ram up.... if you restrict the muffer (when air is sucked in through the muffler), it will do a better job of pulling up the ram. I saw a 2B at Bergman's that had a flexible flapper over the muffer top that helped the machine pull up the ram. I thought (maybe) if I lessened some of that restriction, it might let the ram go down with an active short stroke. Didn't work.....

I sent a note to Ralph Sproul. He should answer. I'll let you know what he says.

We will find the answer to this..

Dave

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 7, 2012
8:31 pm
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Larry L
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Well Dave I got the hammer back together with the new wrist pin and bushing and played with various springs in the check valve... I ranged from very stiff to reasonably light and it seemed to make no difference. I am wondering about the two ball checks in the cushion tower? I wonder if those where stuck open or closed if it would affect it this way? It's about the only thing I can think left to check before tearing into the valves.

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 8, 2012
3:13 am
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Dave Hammer
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Larry

I have doubts whether the ball checks will have any impact on the light-blow capability. When I study where the ball checks are, it looks to me like they are just there to help with the air cushioning when the ram comes up. When the ram is rising, the air (in the center of the ram) is freely exiting up through the cushioning plug bushing until the plug enters the bushing. If I understand it, when the ram is down, while the plug is below the plug bushing, the balls are are not blocking any air movement (even if the balls were stuck, the air would be coming in through the plug bushing), so they shouldn't have any impact on the ram slowly lowering itself during the light treadle action. As more air is needed inside the ram, it is mostly drawn through the plug bushing (a little would be drawn through the ball checks). When the ram goes up and the cushion plug enters the bushing, I expect the balls are lifted by the air pressure (the air still inside the ram is compressed) and are pushed against the seats. This is probably a fine tuning feature for the air cushion. The weight of the balls would determine when the cushion was finally sealed. I have been told by another source that the check ball prevents dead-heading by the ram (hitting the top). At least all this makes sense to me...

That's not to suggest that you not look at the ball checks if you haven't. If the balls are stuck closed, it should mean the cushioning may not be working exactly as designed. If your ram is not hitting the top, it's not likely the balls are stuck open.

If my understanding is not correct, this is all crap.

I found a reference in Nazel literature that describes light blows with light treadle pressure, then heavier blows with more treadle pressure. No explanation beyond that.

Mark Krause told me that the cone was necessary for proper air management, so I am in search of information that will help me know the size of the openings from the bottom of the cone through to the top of the muffler tower.

He said the cone and muffler (tower) is the same on the 4B and 3B, so I assume you could provide the information I need (at least most of it). I would appreciate it....

Could you measure the inside diameter of the tower (measure the inside diameter at the bottom of the tower)? Mark said the tower is a straight pipe up to beyond where the cone goes. Measure the outside diameter of the top of the cone. Also, what is the height of the cone? One more thing... What is the inside diameter of the very top of the muffler tower?

The only other piece I might need is the amount of open space on the lower side of the cone. It is a rough casting there (on my 1B), but essentially, it has a round opening, with cross bars through the middle. If you could measure, or estimate the inside diameter of that circle, and the width of the cross bars, I could get a pretty good idea of how much open space (square inches) is open at the bottom of the muffler.

I don't mean to give you a lot of work to do, but this would help me a great deal...

This information will be enough for me to be able to fabricate something...

I took out my valves and looked inside with a strong light to see whether or not if the sleeves might have slipped somehow. I am positive they have not. From looking at the inside of the sleeves, I think it would be fairly easy to see if they were out of position.

I do think it would be a good idea if you measured the tolerances between the valves and the sleeves. Mark's booklet says the clearance should be not more than .0005.

I can easily see that if that clearance was excessive, the air management would suffer. The air management needed to allow the tup to come down with a light treadle movement would be pretty sensitive to being accurate (just a little differential in volume on the lower and upper side of the ram). If air leakage is the issue, it could happen in several places (the valves, the lower or upper side of the ram). I'm assuming, based upon your video, your compress side is working fine. I'll be measuring my valve clearances also.

I'm hoping my problem is not having the proper back pressure on the top end because the muffler is not set up properly.

Dave

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
3:38 am
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Dave Hammer
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I was editing my last comment across about 3/4s of an hour, so if you read it shortly after the time stamp above, you probably should read it again....

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
5:08 am
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Larry L
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Im happy to take measurements and shoot you some pictures but I dont think the 3 and 4 are the same. I think the 4 has a much larger assembly and would not come close to bolting on the 3.... I'll take some pictures tomorrow

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 8, 2012
6:23 am
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Dave Hammer
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If the 4B muffler tower is too large for the 3B, the diameter of the muffler tower base ring (with the bolt holes) would be different than the 3B. Please shoot me that number as well.

Thanks Larry.

If the 3B muffler (and cone) is different than the 4B, is there anyone else out there that can provide me those numbers?

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
11:49 am
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Dave Hammer
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Larry...

John Newman suggested (on IFI) slowing the hammer down using a VFD. This is the response to that I posted over there....

John..... Thanks for the "changing the speed" nudge... I had thought about doing that, but didn't put it on my list. I don't have a VFD, but.... for an experiment, I can hook the hammer up to an old military generator I have and slow the motor down. I know I have read somewhere (can't put my hands on the source document right now) that the speed (BPM) on these hammers can be varied by 25%. If I understand the electrical aspects correctly, I should be able to take the speed of the generator down till it is running at 50 cycles (as opposed to 60 cycles). The hammer motor, although it doesn't have a 50HZ rating on it, should be able to run at that HZ for a while without causing problems (any other opinion out there?). I think the generator motor rpm is proportionate to the cycles generated. If I've done the math correctly, I should be able to drop the hammer BPM to 150 (from 180), assuming the speed of the motor will drop with the lower HZ source.

I may need to wait a couple days before I can do this. It has been VERY wet here for a couple days and I have to drive my Bobcat across part of my lawn to move my generator. Hopefully there is a better solution, but if this works... at least we know we can get there.

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
12:12 pm
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John N
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Hi, It wasnt John Newman, other John N 😀

Larrys hammer has gear and pinion drive, so it is unlikey that the speed has been messed around with by alterning motor pullys in the past, and from the video it sounds at a comfortable speed (not strained)

Slowing them down does improve the manners, but at the expense of top end power.

The lack of light blow control is prolly caused by something other than the speed the machine is operating at, but adjusting the speed is a quick -n- easy thing to try, so whilst it may not be the 'correct' fix, it might still be a fix !

as ever... this advice is worth what you paid for it :happy:

October 8, 2012
2:35 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Thanks John N..... Sorry for the name confusion.

I did put a restriction on the TOP of my current muffler tower. The opening was more than three inches in diameter. I reduced that to just over 2 inches (I didn't change the number of holes in the platter that replaces the cone). I have to say, it is better, a short stroke comes down about half way now, then lengthens (although not to full) as I approach the lower die. So it's better, but still not what I think it should be. The back pressure on the upper end of the ram cylinder definitely has significance.

I'm thinking I might reduce the number of holes in the platter next and try again.

Next is the speed experiment (not sure I can wait till it dries out to try it).

I

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
2:58 pm
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Larry L
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Dave I have already slowed my machine down, when I got it it was running 200 BPM (its suppose to be 150 BPM) so I had a new spur gear made to slow it down... its now 149 bpm which is as good as it gets. It operated the same either way.

The other thing is my feeling is this is a mechanical problem. its not that the hammer is operating as it should and I have control issues. Its that the hammer is not behaving as you would expect. I have run half a dozen Nazels and all had the same light clinging blow where you could get a tap with the ram raising just a bit and then squeezing back. This hammer has no such thing as even with the lightest pressure on the treadle you get full strokes of the ram. there is air going someplace its not suppose to or its not getting air someplace its suppose to be.

My cushion pin bushing has more clearance than it should, its hard to measure in the hammer but I would guess its 20-30 thousands and I think should be more like 5-8 thou but I cant believe it would effect the light blow of the hammer since during that light blow the pin should never reach up to the bushing... Looking down inside the cushion tower it looks like the ball checks are free, they are clean and shiny down in there so they must not be stuck. I'll pull the cushion tower and ram probably today if I get a chance and report back..

I dont know if it is related but the valves / treadle seem sluggish on this hammer.... on my 3B the action is quick, everything moves fast.. If you pull your foot off the treadle in a jerk the hammer responds immediately... On the 4B its like everything is moving though thick oil and it takes a blow before the hammer responds to the treadle... I pulled both valves cleaned the ISO 100 oil (30wt air compressor oil) off and squirted WD-40 in the valve sleeves just to see if a lighter lube would give a quicker action.. Didn't seem to make a difference. I kind of figured its just a consequence of the larger hammer not being as nimble

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 8, 2012
3:01 pm
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Larry L
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My 3B has a home made copy muffler and I had some control issues with it... They where solved by taking a chunk of tool box drawer liner and clamping it over the muffler opening to restrict the air. its about 50% open I would suppose and made all the difference. I was getting the ram coming up a little sluggish didnt have quite the snap I wanted when doing rapid treadle changes... that little bit made a big difference... I'll take pictures of all the 3B and 4B stuff today...

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

October 8, 2012
3:21 pm
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Dave Hammer
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Thanks Larry.....

Does your 3B do short blows with a light treadle movement?

Dave

Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd

October 8, 2012
3:36 pm
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Larry L
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yep... my 3B has great control and I can get very light very short blows

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

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