Northwest Blacksmith Association

Nazel 4B Install | Page 3 | Power Hammers and Presses | Forum

Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

No permission to create posts
sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_TopicIcon
Nazel 4B Install
February 9, 2011
9:28 am
Avatar
Gene C
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 504
Member Since:
March 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hmmmmm,

Seems to go against the grain when I was in my machine tool days.:furious::smug::spin:

Level, level, level

February 9, 2011
1:31 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

now I see why the one piece hammers are so sought after! 😀

February 9, 2011
1:36 pm
Avatar
JNewman
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 520
Member Since:
May 13, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

The one advantage of level, is it is easy to check frame to level then anvil to level. Something to check is that the bottom of the anvil is parallel to the top. After putting in my anvil I discovered that mine were not. Talking to one of the guys that worked in the shop where the hammer was, he told me that they had had the top of the anvil machined in place after it settled on the timbers they had underneath. I had to jack the anvil up enough to slide a 1/2" thick piece of baltic birch plywood under one side. So far that has stood up well, the anvil has not shifted at all.

February 9, 2011
4:14 pm
Avatar
Rob F
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 171
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Stumptown Forge;7235 wrote: Alright,

So like most things I attempt the first time never goes exactly correct. Got a bit of a problem. I used a transit level and have some issues with the concrete being level. I have as high a a 5/8" differential at one mounting hold. So.....Whats the best way to level a big hammer. I thought of using shims and then possibly grouting the rest. I am really concerned that the grout may just chip out.

Are you worried about level or is your concrete slab not "flat in plane" on the top? It sounds to me that you have a 5/8" hump in your concrete and would like to make the whole slab "flat" so you do not create stresses by having an uneven mounting surface. At the point you have the grinder going "level" is too easy not to do.
Either way if you need to remove concrete use the cup wheel, just expect a LOT of dust.
Rob

February 9, 2011
4:41 pm
Avatar
Larry L
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 1566
Member Since:
March 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey Ken, the lead comment was half tongue in cheek.... I think taking a sheet of 5/4 ply and putting it between the hammer and the foundation, or timbers and foundation what ever the case is, and sucking it up to give you an idea of the high spots... then carve a bit on the ply with a chainsaw to suck up the high spots... Then it will give a good buffer for any inconsistency and still give it a good solid mate to the hammer.... And its pretty simple...

I have used a lot of non shrink grout to for leveling but it has always been with leveling nuts to level the machine and then grouted under, so the nuts supported much of the machine... Never done it with a hammer so I dont know how the grout would hold up.... Done many many many crane columns that way though

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 10, 2011
5:43 am
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Larry L;7258 wrote: Hey Ken, the lead comment was half tongue in cheek.... I think taking a sheet of 5/4 ply and putting it between the hammer and the foundation, or timbers and foundation what ever the case is, and sucking it up to give you an idea of the high spots... then carve a bit on the ply with a chainsaw to suck up the high spots... Then it will give a good buffer for any inconsistency and still give it a good solid mate to the hammer.... And its pretty simple...

I have used a lot of non shrink grout to for leveling but it has always been with leveling nuts to level the machine and then grouted under, so the nuts supported much of the machine... Never done it with a hammer so I dont know how the grout would hold up.... Done many many many crane columns that way though

Hind sight is always 20/20, unless you're blind. I raised my hammer body 3" using 3 pieces of 1" plywood. The cutouts for the anvil were subsequently placed under the anvil to raise it 3" also. Beeeg mistake. The plywood compressed with usage and the tup was close to bottoming out.

Had I used a 3" layer of hard wood in place of the plywood, I would not have had to weld a 1/2" buildup to the bottom die (easiest solution). Live and learn...

JE

February 11, 2011
11:38 pm
Avatar
John N
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 62
Member Since:
August 5, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Gone into this a little by 'pm' with the guy installing the hammer, but ill chip in a bit here 🙂 it is worth having level as level! (not hammer and anvil square to each other)

Gravity allways works straight up n down, if your air hammer frame is 5 degrees tilted the piston head will try and shave the inside of the cylinder at opposite points top and bottom, and load up on the guides. They get hot, and wear the bores pretty quick.

Not much of an issue on a small hammer but noticable on bigger ones. I rebuilt a 6 ton die forging hammer many moons ago that used to snap its (10"dia) piston rod every couple of weeks because it was tilted over a bit!

Grind the concrete, plane the timbers and then fill the gaps with steel shims with fiberglass resin and mats seems to work well for us on open die, 2 piece hammers like the Nazel and Massey types.

ohh, and whilst im harping on a bit....! stall matting, or conveyor belt is a bit of a no no for me under a hammer (frame or anvil) bounce is bad, very bad! the proper anvil block rubber mats (sold by fabreeka and james walkers etc) are 'tuned' to the very low frequency of a hammer striking. They are very dense and wont collapse after a year of two (you cant mark them with a screwdriver, to give an idea of density).

February 12, 2011
4:05 am
Avatar
Guest
Guests

John N;7316 wrote: Gone into this a little by 'pm' with the guy installing the hammer, but ill chip in a bit here 🙂 it is worth having level as level! (not hammer and anvil square to each other)

Gravity allways works straight up n down, if your air hammer frame is 5 degrees tilted the piston head will try and shave the inside of the cylinder at opposite points top and bottom, and load up on the guides. They get hot, and wear the bores pretty quick.

Not much of an issue on a small hammer but noticable on bigger ones. I rebuilt a 6 ton die forging hammer many moons ago that used to snap its (10"dia) piston rod every couple of weeks because it was tilted over a bit!

Grind the concrete, plane the timbers and then fill the gaps with steel shims with fiberglass resin and mats seems to work well for us on open die, 2 piece hammers like the Nazel and Massey types.

ohh, and whilst im harping on a bit....! stall matting, or conveyor belt is a bit of a no no for me under a hammer (frame or anvil) bounce is bad, very bad! the proper anvil block rubber mats (sold by fabreeka and james walkers etc) are 'tuned' to the very low frequency of a hammer striking. They are very dense and wont collapse after a year of two (you cant mark them with a screwdriver, to give an idea of density).

Can't argue w/you about level...best case scenario...but even the best laid plans go awry.
So, now that the slab has been poured, the question is what is the best option to make it as level as possible without compromising the integrity of the hammer.

My guess is that 5/8" over 9-10' isn't going to make a significant change in the operation/wear of the hammer. I could be wrong, but with daily use, it may take a whole lot of Saturdays to do any measurable negative efficiency in the hammer.

If it was my hammer on that concrete pour. I'd drink a few shots of good single malt scotch, bolt the hammer down, and call it a day.

Tomorrow, I'd beat the hell out of what needed to be done and call it a day. Life goes on...

JE

February 21, 2011
7:00 pm
Avatar
Stumptown Forge
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 78
Member Since:
May 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well we will be leveling the hammer foundation tomorrow. After much debate, discussion, more discussion, some meetings with people that know concrete we will be leveling the hammer foundation tomorrow using an Epoxy. This hybrid concrete will harden and adhere to the foundation and hopefully fix my mistakes. We will have first steps pictures tomorrow and should have the epoxy pour on Wednesday! I thought I would continue putting in information including how to fix my mistake as quite frankly this is how I learn and with the frequency of my mistakes I am getting smarter by the moment.

February 21, 2011
7:27 pm
Avatar
Mark
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 155
Member Since:
June 16, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

So are you using an epoxy grout? That stuff is pretty amazing. Normal concrete is in the 25-35 MPa range after about 30 days and that grout can usually hit about 90 MPa in the same time.

Are you also going to be bush hammering the existing concrete prior to pouring your grout?

We use it for grouting equipment bases in industrial applications. Most of the equipment we install is fairly static. I wasn't sure if the epoxy grout is appropriate for the impacts of a power hammer.

February 21, 2011
7:42 pm
Avatar
Rob F
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 171
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Is that self leveling? Sounds like a good way to not breathe grinding dust.
Please show pics:D
Rob

February 26, 2011
2:38 am
Avatar
Stumptown Forge
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 78
Member Since:
May 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well all the product used was a self leveling epoxy and it appears to have worked extremely well. The floor is dry and level and well there you have it pretty simple to use. I will mount the power hammer as soon as the friction press arrives.

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

February 26, 2011
10:03 pm
Avatar
ironstein
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 144
Member Since:
December 19, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Looks good. Looking forward to seeing the process all completed and working!

February 27, 2011
2:13 am
Avatar
Rob F
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 171
Member Since:
August 23, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It looks like you poured the back side of the machine and not the front, are they level with each other? Is your hole too deep now or do you just put a thicker wood base?
Looks really good.
Rob

February 27, 2011
3:57 am
Avatar
Larry L
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 1566
Member Since:
March 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Looks like a 4B may be in my future, Can I hire you to put in my foundation Ken?:p

It looks good if nothing else...

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

March 1, 2011
3:00 am
Avatar
Stumptown Forge
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 78
Member Since:
May 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Like I said Larry I think I could write a book on what not to do. We will let it dry for about a week seal everything and then get this hammer mounted hopefully in March.

I will put up more photos once we get it rigged and installed.

June 29, 2011
4:53 am
Avatar
Stumptown Forge
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 78
Member Since:
May 30, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well after several years and a more intimate knowledge of what a hole 6 feet deep feels like we finally got the Nazel installed today. Its anvil and frame lie on a bed of Purple Heart.

I have uploaded a short video on Youtube and included some pics

Attached files

[Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found] [Image Can Not Be Found]

June 29, 2011
5:46 am
Avatar
Larry L
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 1566
Member Since:
March 22, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks gotta feel good Ken.... Is that thing a flat belt drive?

I called on Sunday when I was on my way back from Government camp to see about stopping in... Sounded like you where knee deep in students... Hopefully I can get down and see you soon..

Do me a favor and measure from the bottom of your guide ring to the top of the bottom die... Curious how close to the same we are... What is the SN of your machine?

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

August 27, 2014
3:51 am
Avatar
Ironton Forge
Member
Registered User
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
August 27, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hey Ken,

  Just stumbled across this thread... Beautiful job installing the hammer! How's it working for you? I still regret selling it, but I'm glad it went to a good home!

   Cheers!

No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 668

Currently Online:
13 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

Larry L: 1566

Grant: 1420

Bruce Macmillan: 625

Lee Cordochorea: 595

Lynn Gledhill: 572

JNewman: 520

Gene C: 504

J Wilson: 426

Eric Sprado: 383

Tom Allyn: 340

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 22

Members: 8710

Moderators: 4

Admins: 1

Forum Stats:

Groups: 23

Forums: 97

Topics: 3532

Posts: 20280

Newest Members:

Lionel42, briana2211, LawlessForge, Jim Cameron, hsmac02, Theresa Mae Oborn, Anthony Parker-Hoang, PJF, Adamphipps, Jackstakes

Moderators: Steve McGrew: 77, N.W.B.A.: 72, webmaster: 0, bluehost: 0

Administrators: admin: 539