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Test punch
January 31, 2011
6:32 pm
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Steve H
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Honestly, I don't know why I hadn't tried the fixed tooling option on the press before. I'd used handled slitters and punches under the hammer and press but could not have gotten the accuracy that this setup gives. So- while not quite ready to report on a Brazeal style hammer I'm glad to show what a measly 3 hp can do~. Next up is an indexing system to get even holes say on a 4" center. Samples were 3/4 X 1 1/2 and 1 1/4 sq.
I stole John E's punch holder idea by drilling a hole through a tube. The punch dropped down in and really held the alignment while welding.

Other things to report on: Pleasantly surprised I was to see the S-7 hold up pretty well. I was thinking H-13 is more suited to this stuff but as long as you don't let things get too hot, yer OK. Also interesting was it seemed like a dull red heat gave less distortion and suck-through than an orange heat. What blows me away is how the hole looks like glass- no chop from getting repeatedly beat on.

I'm anxious to try some slitters in this vein now and as a friend of mine said- 'what about a two stage setup?' Why not have a slitter & drift side by side? I've never given the time to develop multi-stage dies but what the heck, might have to give it a shot.

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They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

January 31, 2011
9:55 pm
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Phil
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We have a 60 ton massey power punch that I am keen to set up to punch these damn spiking hammer heads that are always a pain in the arse. I am reluctant to go through the motions of making tooling for it if it is not up to the job, we have to blob punch an oval hole about 7/8" x 1 1/4" through 3 1/2" of 4140 in one go. that is so that the punch will extrude the material down into the neck of the hammer.
What do you guys reckon, will 60 ton mechanical, punch that?

January 31, 2011
11:21 pm
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Steve H
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I do reckon that mechanical would do the job and then some, Phil. Mechanicals are way faster than most, if not all the hydraulic presses out there. Get the tool in and out as fast as possible and heat build-up never gets to be a problem. This press is about a 30 ton and if I hooked up the 10HP pump to it I don't think it would blink going through 3" of 4140. Actually, my plan is to punch 2" 0-1 with it here pretty soon. That will be from both sides, however.

They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

February 1, 2011
1:37 am
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Grant
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I'd expect 60 ton to do it just dandy. Post a picture of one of them suckers Phil, I'd like to get a better idea how much extrusion you're talking about. Seems like maybe you want a pretty blunt punch to push more metal down as opposed to cleaving it.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

February 1, 2011
1:54 am
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Larry L
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So Steve.... describe your proses... How far in you go on the first side, how many times in... what are you using for lube... no stripper? anything as a centering aid?

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 1, 2011
5:58 am
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Steve H
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Hey Larry,
Out of ten or so holes, there were two that I thought about 'perfect'. That is- with as little suck and deformation as possible. I do think those were the ones where my heat was probably 12-1500 degrees, cooler than I would have thought was OK. Best results were obtained going half way with solid backing, flipping over and driving it thru the open bolster. Total time was seconds. Unfortunately I was completely guessing about the punch placement on the backside since there was no 'dark spot' This is definately one of those 'can't describe it but you know it when you see it' things. In other words, that first impression is gonna be the one you need to take and lo and behold, the slugs fell right out~.

Lube was the first thing I groped for; my paste wax brush shoved into the powdered graphite can. Seemed to work damn well.
Stripper wasn't pretty for sure but they do serve a purpose. Alignment was all by eye.
The Brazeal hammer is still the goal of this exercise but I'm really liking the side-effects!

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They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

February 1, 2011
11:12 am
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Phil
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Yeh OK so you've convinced me, I'll have a whack at a few of them suckers this week. Just jury rig it so as I can punch them, at least it will give me and idea of yay or nay.

February 1, 2011
12:23 pm
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JNewman
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Grant;6970 wrote: I'd expect 60 ton to do it just dandy. Post a picture of one of them suckers Phil, I'd like to get a better idea how much extrusion you're talking about. Seems like maybe you want a pretty blunt punch to push more metal down as opposed to cleaving it.

I have been told a few time by Leo a retired blacksmith from Stelco steel about a stamp he made for drifting or punching out the eyes on brick hammers, I will have to ask him which. He originally made it with the collar for the handle down and drove the drift/punch in from the top planning to drag the material down. Unfortunately the material kept extruding up through the hole in the top and binding the punch. He re made it so that the collar was at the top of the tool and punching/drifting the hole extruded the material up and filled the cavity.

February 2, 2011
10:20 am
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david hyde
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Cybo;6993 wrote: Hey Larry,
Unfortunately I was completely guessing about the punch placement on the backside since there was no 'dark spot' This is definately one of those 'can't describe it but you know it when you see it' things. In other words, that first impression is gonna be the one you need to take and lo and behold, the slugs fell right out~.

I kinda find when you turn the bar over you can usually spot a bit of "scale disturbance" where the scale has cracked immeadiately under the punced area.

Biggest problem I have with alignment is parallax effects when viewing from an angle.

Also helps to have as little stripper covering the work as you can get away with so you can get a clearer sight of where to "aim" the punch

February 3, 2011
12:12 am
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Will. K.
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What size & grade of tube did you use to weld the punch to?

February 3, 2011
4:47 am
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Steve H
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Hey Will. I think it was just 1 1/4" tubing, maybe 1/8" wall mild steel. The butt end of the punch was unmolested (7/8" diam) so I drilled the same size hole through both walls of the tube and dropped the punch in, preheated it all to orange and tig welded with mild wire.

David- you're right about the scale disturbance. One gets to know what to look for after awhile and 9 times out of ten I was pretty much right on.

They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

February 3, 2011
8:57 am
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david hyde
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Cybo;7086 wrote:

David- you're right about the scale disturbance. One gets to know what to look for after awhile and 9 times out of ten I was pretty much right on.

I guess it's one of those ..... you know what it is when you see it but difficult to describe in words .... kinda an educated gut reaction

December 11, 2011
5:07 am
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Steve H
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Been awhile since I tried it.
I wound up going with a Lillico inspired tool and am pleasanty surprised at the results.
Blanks were 1 5/8 x 3" 4140

The punch is 1095 from a crowbar

Getting closer to looking like a rounding hammer

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They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

December 11, 2011
2:24 pm
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Mike B
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It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to come up with a spring-loaded pilot to align the half-finished hole with the bolster after you flip the piece over. Though that might be solving a problem that doesn't really exist.

December 11, 2011
8:41 pm
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Grant
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Mike B;13516 wrote: It seems like it wouldn't be that hard to come up with a spring-loaded pilot to align the half-finished hole with the bolster after you flip the piece over. Though that might be solving a problem that doesn't really exist.

I know just what you're saying, used to try to come up with all sorts of "crutches". Your mind is an amazing tool. Like in this case, the first few holes are frustrating and you keep trying to figure out what you're doing wrong. In reality, you don't need to "figure out" how to do it. Just do it several times and your subconscious will work it out. Pretty soon you're wondering why the heck you had so much trouble the first time.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

December 12, 2011
12:35 am
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Steve H
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In this case I did not flip the piece over. The whole slug is punched in one shot. There is more suck than I'd like but I was able to pull most of it out when I fullered the cheeks.

They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

December 12, 2011
1:04 am
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Grant
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Actually I knew that, but got distracted by the question. Used to do thousands of pins that way. Only they were captive in a split die.

Nice job, BTW, Steve. So, let's see the actual punching.

“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~

December 12, 2011
1:35 am
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D_Evans
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I am impressed and it isn't even my tool. Great job!

Dave

No one really listens to anyone else, and if you try it for a while you'll see why.
- Mignon McLaughlin

http://WinDancerKnives.com

December 14, 2011
2:43 am
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Silas
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Steve,

Just was looking at this the other day and was reminded looking at this thread.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topi.....ammer-eye/

Pretty slick and no frills way to center your stock for punching under the press. Allows for swell and the piece can be flipped and stays on center.

Now just where do we get big tungsten out of spent shell casings...

December 14, 2011
4:02 am
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Rob F
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Silas;13552 wrote: Steve,

Now just where do we get big tungsten out of spent shell casings...

Join the taliban? Or for the forward thinkers in the group move to Iran;)

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