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Utility hammer cylinders.
February 6, 2011
4:19 am
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JimB
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What kind of cylinders are generally used for utility hammers? Cushioned or not? Mount style etc.

Just trying to hash some things out in my mind 🙂

Thanks for the help!

Jim

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February 6, 2011
6:01 am
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Larry L
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John Larson is the guy.... Maybe he will speak up?

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 6, 2011
6:53 am
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JimB
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I've searched for the information more than once, but there it's pretty scattered. Lots of "Refer to Kinyon Plans" and the like.

Any and all advice welcome 🙂

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February 6, 2011
7:04 am
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Larry L
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If you had specific questions i would send John a PM, he is a member of this forum... He really is the go to guy and I think he would be more than happy to point you to what ever info you need. I know he has said much on the subject on this and other forums, just not sure now to get you to that info..

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 6, 2011
2:30 pm
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JimB
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Well my biggest concern is whether or not I need to get a cylinder with cushioning to prevent any end-of-travel related issues.

I was going to send John a msg, but he's not setup to accept 🙂

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February 6, 2011
3:06 pm
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JNewman
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You do not want a cushion on the bottom of the cylinder because it will reduce the power of the hammer the hammer dies should strike before the cylinder bottoms out. A cushion in the top of the cylinder is a good idea to prevent the cylinder slamming into the top. However a cushion is not enough to stop the cylinder slamming if you set your pilot valves too high, a longer cylinder helps with preventing that.

February 7, 2011
2:58 am
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SGensh
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Jim B, On my shop built air hammer I use a cylinder without cushioning in either direction. It's stroke is just larger than the guide mechanism will allow it to travel. I do have a flexible collar mounted on the rod cylinder which acts as a cushioning agent on the upstroke. When the hammer is run full out that bumper gets some real use. Mine is an old Porsche suspension part (free- I'm cheap) but you could easily get a polyurethane die spring that would just fit over your rod diameter to do the same job. No cushions let's you use a less expensive cylinder with a little less restriction than a cushion type. Let me know if you want a photo. Steve G

February 7, 2011
3:26 am
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JimB
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Thanks for the replies everybody.

Starting to get a better idea of what I'm going to need. I'm interested in a hammer similar to something like this. Seems like it would be a fairly snappy hammer with the smaller cylinder.

[Image Can Not Be Found]

Steve G: If you happen to get a photo up one of these days that would be awesome, but don't sweat it 🙂

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February 7, 2011
6:24 am
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Larry L
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I dont mean to be rude, but what good is it? I mean if you where planshing cold formed sheet metal I could see the use of a fast, light hammer such as that but for blacksmith work it just seems useless?... (sorry)

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 7, 2011
3:16 pm
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Steve H
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Interesting- that's a hydraulic cylinder, no? I guess it depends on how much whip it develops to see if it's useful for forging. That single leaf is probably pretty noodley

They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!

February 7, 2011
3:54 pm
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Larry L
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I guess I shouldn't say useless... My thoughts are more that it would take exactly the same amount of work to build a 50-100lb hammer so I dont understand why you would build a 10-20lb hammer... I have seen that hammer in person and to me it seemed like a very cute little toy

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 8, 2011
12:28 am
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JimB
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Well I was going to re-size the photo so it would hit hard...Duh! 😉

The first time I saw a 'bench top' hammer one of Maurice Ellis'. They were pretty cute.

The one I'm thinking about building would be larger with a larger anvil. How large will depend on what I have on hand. Might just go with a Kinyon style with an air compressor upgrade or even a mechanical.

Never really knew much about the cylinders or what I would need to look for for ANY air hammer. 🙂

Never claimed to know exactly what I was doing :playfull:

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February 8, 2011
12:50 am
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JimB
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Didn't realize it before but I could remove the guided ram and just shoot for a fantastically dangerous helve hammer 😉

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February 8, 2011
1:47 am
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Doc
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The cylinder in the pic is an air cylinder not a hydraulic and if you look closely the two brass fittings facing front and 90* from the hose fittings look suspiciously like cushion adjusters to me!

February 8, 2011
2:21 am
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That hammer was built by Ted Banning.

February 8, 2011
2:46 am
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JimB
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Is that who it was, Sam? I think I found it on Fogg's site.

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February 8, 2011
3:01 am
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SGensh
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Jim B, Here's a pic of the cushion I was talking about. My hammer's an ugly thing but it works beautifully for a bunch of old recycled scrap ( I think so anyway). If you look just above the ram and just below the pilot valve you will see that there is a brownish rubbery looking thing in place on the end of the piston rod. When the hammer is run hard the bumper will compress against the cylinder mount providing a mechanical cushion in lieu of a pneumatic one. A few of the posters to the forum have run this hammer and know first hand that this simple method works.

One problem I see with any of the "table top" hammers is that you really don't seem to be able to get a sufficient amount of anvil mass under the ram in the little bit of space you have available. When you look at the sheet metal planishing hammers or a pullmax type machine you are not looking at the same type of operation as a typical forging hammer. Our "forging" hammers are concerned with putting the energy of the blow deep into a mass of metal while a sheet metal forming hammer is concerned with displacing a significantly less massive bit of material with little depth and can use a far less massive anvil to form rather than to forge the material. Even a very good small or light weight forging hammer will only move an outer "skin" when it reaches outside it's capacity; a hammer with too little anvil mass will do that most all the time. My advice would be to build a Kinyon style with simple but high flowing control valves and start forging with it. If you want I have a couple of build notes in pdf format you might find helpful- or not. Steve G

Attached files

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February 8, 2011
5:47 pm
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JimB
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I'm not planning on building a table top hammer. I'm interested in the action of that hammer I posted.

It may not be a 100# monster, but it'd probably come in around 30-50lbs. I know bigger is better, but at the same time I know I have to build it and move it by myself and despite my awesome Greek god-like physique I can only move so much 😉

Just have to wait and see 🙂

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February 8, 2011
5:53 pm
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Larry L
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Ok fair enough, I wouldn't want to anger a "god like" muscle bound freak like yourself... Have you looked at the New Kiynon hammer? its much like this

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 9, 2011
1:57 am
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JimB
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Larry L;7227 wrote: I wouldn't want to anger a "god like" muscle bound freak

I've also been told I'm 10lbs of BS in a 5lb bag 😉

I am not really familiar with the new hammers though I was planning getting the plans when I re-up with ABANA next month. Ralph Sproul has a very comprehensive set of plans that I'm interested in as well.

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