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3:10 am
April 21, 2010
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Yesterday Afternoon talking with Larry and Dan Klennert while installing my new hammer (thanks again larry 🙂 ) Mr Klennart brought up making some yard art/sculpture for my place/rental and it got me thinking. I have been thinking about making small Menorahs for a while now shaped out to look like small trees, with the steel textured to look like bark and 4 leaves forming the cups off of branches. Now that conversation about yard art has made me think of making one on a large scale. I'll roughly sketch it out and post it later on, but I was thinking I have no idea where to start. I am thinking of it being 6' tall but not really sure of the amount of material Ill need or what I should make it out of. Should I make a small one first as a base, cause was thinking if I make the bug one , I might be able to sell the small ones if folks like it.
3:14 am
March 22, 2010
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WmHorus;1730 wrote: Yesterday Afternoon talking with Larry and Dan Klennert while installing my new hammer (thanks again larry 🙂 ) Mr Klennart brought up making some yard art/sculpture for my place/rental and it got me thinking. I have been thinking about making small Menorahs for a while now shaped out to look like small trees, with the steel textured to look like bark and 4 leaves forming the cups off of branches. Now that conversation about yard art has made me think of making one on a large scale. I'll roughly sketch it out and post it later on, but I was thinking I have no idea where to start. I am thinking of it being 6' tall but not really sure of the amount of material Ill need or what I should make it out of. Should I make a small one first as a base, cause was thinking if I make the bug one , I might be able to sell the small ones if folks like it.
I think thats a great idea... Building a scale-ish small size one is a good plan too... That way you'll have a better idea for the material for the full size version..
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
11:01 pm
April 21, 2010
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The first thing I am trying to think my way through is the base, to make it a separate piece OR do it like mangrove roots if that helps the visuals. or split a bar into 4 pieces force the end down flat and pull the 4 tendrils out and curl them around as roots/base to balance it.
4:36 pm
April 21, 2010
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Another idea that just came up was actually using cable for this as well, but wondering about attaching the limbs...thinking maybe brazing but not sure how much weight a braze could hold....
12:55 pm
May 15, 2010
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Here is one I recently finished, not a Menorah though. 5' x 5' iron, bronze and stone.
Michael Dillon
http://dillonforge.com/
6:11 pm
March 26, 2010
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Danger;1937 wrote: Here is on I recently finished, not a Menorah though. 5' x 5' iron, bronze and stone.
Nice work Danger, kinda got a Japaneese look to it.
7:53 pm
April 21, 2010
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Beautiful work, very Bonsai style, was it one piece of steel for the trunk? Thats what has got me thinking multi part or single piece. I just have to locate a place locally with mild steel to go look at and experiment with. I have even thought of doing it with cable as a medium.
8:45 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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I used to make a LOT of menorahs.
These were production pieces, we usually made a dozen or two of each design at a time, so there isnt much hardcore forging in most of them. To meet wholesale price points, labor had to be as little as possible.
But you can get design ideas from them.
11:48 am
May 15, 2010
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WmHorus;1952 wrote: Beautiful work, very Bonsai style, was it one piece of steel for the trunk? Thats what has got me thinking multi part or single piece. I just have to locate a place locally with mild steel to go look at and experiment with. I have even thought of doing it with cable as a medium.
It was welded from many pieces. I think you could find some large strand cable that may work, I saw a street performer in Italy using aluminum wire that he manipulated into all kinds of things with minimal tools and expense, may keep the price point low.
Michael Dillon
http://dillonforge.com/
5:12 pm
April 21, 2010
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Ries,
Thanks for the added Ideas, I've been trying to think of the various ways to make it simpler and cost effective.
Danger,
What did you use or how did do the bark texture......I am just trying to figure out the best and easiest way to do it as well as cost effective...
And what do you guys normally pay for round bar stock?
11:33 am
May 15, 2010
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I made a clapper die for my power hammer, cut several but not a lot of groves with a hand grinder, then wire brushed the crap out of it to soften the edges.
Michael Dillon
http://dillonforge.com/
3:58 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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I do that too- make my own spring swages. You make a positive, then put it, cold, into a hot set of spring swage blanks, and beat it with the hammer.
A press is better, as it only makes one impression, and its cleaner, but a hammer will do.
Or, you could just buy em premade from Grant.
He makes at least two different "vine" dies, and, I think, a bark die as well.
Its hard to beat Grants stuff, for quality and long life. I abuse the hell out of it daily, mostly on stainless, and I have yet to wear any of it out.
As we like to say about Grant up here in the Skagit-
"That man has a LOT of my money".
As for round bar-
Well, you pay what they are charging.
Steel is a commodity, and prices are set daily on the london exchange, for 40,000lb lots.
Most yards around here update prices to reflect world prices.
So its rare to find screaming deals.
New hot rolled is usually around 80 cents a pound, but that varies a bit depending on profiles.
And, of course, how much you buy.
I used to make some products that justified buying a bundle- which, at that time, from that supplier, meant 1 ton of a given size of 20 foot pieces of round bar.
Obviously, I got a better price per pound when buying in that quantity.
For one stick, cut in half, you pay a premium.
There are usually price breaks every few hundred pounds, so it makes sense to buy a bunch of steel at once, even if you mix sizes and shapes.
It doesnt ever spoil, so you can keep it for years. I have oddball special sizes of stuff from 20, maybe even 30 years ago- think I still have a piece of 1 1/2" half round, about ten feet long, that I used to make a pair of benches for the lobby of a condo on First avenue in Belltown in about 1980.
It will find its perfect home, someday.
4:47 pm
April 21, 2010
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hmmmm odd Tacoma steel says that the cold rolled is the stuff for blacksmiths when I called and asked for 1018 steel. whats the diff between hot and cold rolled?
4:49 pm
April 21, 2010
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Ok just read wikipedia on Hot/Cold Rolled Steel.
6:43 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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Wikipedia- thats like reading about how to make babies- you need to practice with the real thing, if you know what I mean.
Most people forge with hot rolled. Its cheaper, and since you are going to change the shape of the metal anyway, it is seldom necessary to have the more precise shape that cold rolled offers.
Some people use cold rolled for certain sizes and shapes, especially really itty bitty ones, because its very hard to find hot rolled in round bar under 1/4", and in square bar under 3/8".
So, if for instance, you need square 1/4" bar, you usually buy cold rolled.
Me, I can barely see stuff that small, so I seldom use it.
Mostly I use cold rolled for fabricated work, where I want the clean, no mill scale finish, and where I need sharp corners on flat or square bars.
I would recommend you bash a few tons of hot rolled, and figure out what you like in terms of sizes, before wasting money on cold rolled. The increase in nominal carbon, if you order 1018 or something like that, as opposed to hot roll, is almost never actually needed for average blacksmithing. 99% of current blacksmithing is done with plain ol garden variety A36.
Certainly, there are special cases where you need cold rolled, but they are rare.
7:54 pm
April 21, 2010
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True about Wikipedia being useless in most instances, it just told me the difference between hot and cold thats all. Ill head over to tacoma steel tomorrow and take a look at what they have in hot rolled. Though I do suspect I will have to get some cold for the smaller leaves. But I am also thinking about doing some cable for the trunk and branches as well. So I probably will look into grants spring swages for it, I asked last week and he has none in stock right now. I am thinking the twist in the cable combined with the bark texture might look Real cool. I still have to get the tension right on my hammer, and will work on that a bit more today, as well as hit the antique place ( he has old tools for cheap ) and get a large pipe wrench for twisting. I am also thinking about a mig welder to tack the arms and stuff on. But there is also brazing but I dont know how that will work out...Its just alot of experimenting I need to do still.
7:59 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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Wiki
aint
useless-
but
there
is
no
substitute
for
hands
on
experience
in
both
sex,
and
blacksmithing
11:07 pm
June 24, 2010
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An advantage of cold rolled in some applications is that it's work hardened and therefore harder and stronger than hot rolled. Obviously forging isn't one of those applications.
"Hands on" huh, Ries?
7:33 am
April 21, 2010
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Well I took my next step and got a Einhell 165 Mig welder to help with things....I am going to spend tomorrow moving a few more things around in the shop and cleaning and thinking before experimenting this week with tree forming. I need to get a new grounding clamp and fix the hatchet job on the powercord and refill the argon tank. I Picked up several sizes of steel to work with so we shall see.
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