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Sculpture thats not sculpture, nor really even art..
February 24, 2011
7:06 pm
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"Yeah, not funny.... Just retarded...." yep but ' art..these days.

damien the cow cutter hirst . one of the worlds best known artists.(so no one in the USA knows how he is;)

he gets an abattoir to cut up some animals. some kids to splash paint on an ol;d record. why is he an artist?
because when he was at art collage he figured out that if he set enough other artists and lovies up he would make it BIG because they would feel obliged to call his "art" ,art.
Not because he had skill. he set up the big exhibition for all. so they rubbed him back.

The art is in the bullshit.

Shame it should be in the piece.
or there should be a separate category for bullshit.

Is it an angle iron nude or does it represent the beaten inside shell of woman looked at and observed for the form on the outside while the inner turmoil and damage is hidden unobserved but that which created the outside, the shell ,that which we observe.

?

February 24, 2011
7:10 pm
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Ries
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I am not saying Paley said it- I meant the whole interview, both sides, was full of a lot of overstatement and puffery.

As for everything being done before- that has to do with art- not science.
Obviously, technological progress is different than drawing a line.
And we metal artists are quick to pick up on new techniques and machines, and make creative work with them.

But for Paley to say that there is nothing in common with his work, and Art Noveau, except "line"- that is, if you leave out twists, tapers, curves, stylized plant forms, and the actual forms the metal takes- gates, tables, headboards, hall stands- I would say there is little about Paley's early work that did NOT track back to Art Noveau.

The gates at the Renwick are stunning, and beautiful, and great work- and there is NOTHING new in them. Everything about them could have been done in 1905.

What makes them good, and, in my opinion, what makes any artwork or craft piece good and interesting is NOT raw originality or newness- its the lifetime experience of an artist, in this case Paley, bringing a unique set of eyes, hands, and brain to the process.

All blacksmithing consists of tapers and upsets, welds and bends, punches and cuts, textures and twists.
The same simple techniques are used by all of us.
Nobody, including Paley, has come up with radical new ways of dealing with hot metal, in probably 1000 years, more likely 5000.
So its not Newness, per se, that matters.

Its what you do with what you got.

And Paley does a lot with the same old techniques, the same problems, the same objects- and thats something to be proud of.
What bothers me is when somebody says, oh no, I am not building on the work of the past, I am a solitary genius inventing whole new forms.

Now, I am not saying Paley is saying exactly that- but he is inferring that its his unique genius that makes his work what it is.
And I am just saying we all are working from the same ideas, and what we DO is whats important, not how much its MINE.

As for having seen Mazzucatelli- I dunno. There are virtually no books with his work in them, even today, and there were far fewer back in 1970 or so when Paley was starting out. The really great euro blacksmiths, aside from the obvious like Gaudi's work, were pretty hard to find in those days- and not really commonly known. Even today, the names of the great Amsterdam smiths are hard to track down. Most people have never heard of the incredible Florentine smith, Micchelucci. Who actually did the ironwork for Horta? or Gaudi for that matter?
We tend to take for granted the amount of info we have today, which is still far too little, but really, 30 years ago, books about this stuff were very thin on the ground.
If you didnt spend a lot of time walking the streets in Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Milan, Torino, or Barcelona, you really didnt see much of this stuff.

February 24, 2011
7:30 pm
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Larry L
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You know thats really insightful Ries and I like it a lot... I can tell you that most of why I dislike being called an "artist" is because I feel I have so little in common with most of the people I meet who claim to be "artists"... Some of that is self expressed importance of what they do and some of it is just a feeling I get when they are trying to explain what this "means".... The stuff I build doesn't mean anything, Its a thing I built because it look like fun, it was interesting or I wanted to see how it would work.. or just because I felt like it.... So I figured I wasnt an artist (nor do I really want to be lumped in that group) Not every Artists fall into that category but enough that I just never wanted to be "that guy" Most of the true artists I know dont really care what people call them.. They are not self important but are sure of there ability and understanding of the medium (I think there is a big difference) and they let people make up there own mind about what the "meaning" of a peice might be...

Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln

February 24, 2011
8:15 pm
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Bruce Macmillan
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[QUOTE=Larry L;7773]You know thats really insightful Ries and I like it a lot... I can tell you that most of why I dislike being called an "artist" is because I feel I have so little in common with most of the people I meet who claim to be "artists"... Some of that is self expressed importance of what they do and some of it is just a feeling I get when they are trying to explain what this "means"....
I've felt this way a time or two about some other blacksmiths, In other words, they were so ''full of themselves'' it was a pain........bm

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
Dr. Seuss

February 24, 2011
8:31 pm
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JNewman
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One problem I have with the current art world is that there is too much emphasis placed on "what the Art is saying". Often there seems to be a need to produce ugly work to be taken seriously, there is no value placed on producing things of beauty. To me workmanship is an important part of art but today it often seems to be seen as a negative rather than a positive.

I love much of Albert Paley's early work but the last thing I saw of his in the Anvil's ring a few years ago was best described by a friend of mine as "a junkyard stood on edge".

February 24, 2011
9:16 pm
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Bruce Macmillan
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This thread could go on forever, I know what art is when I see it. Jackson Pollak sucks to me, but is an absolute genius to others.:alien: We all know what we like, and don't. I don't think it gets any better than that.........

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
Dr. Seuss

February 24, 2011
10:16 pm
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ironstein
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As far as the Paley interview, i liked it, thanks to Danger for posting it. One thing that rang true to me, and this distinguishes artist from artisan. She asked him how close the final form is to the actual drawing or design. He proclaimed that they are rarely even close. The response to this is was that the form "grows" into something else. What about the true master artists that worked in carving stone and created astonishing re-creations. I mean i was shocked when she asked about his relationship with architects, i was surprised at his candor, half expected him to pop off about them. You know many an argument broke out over Paley returning a commission that was nothing like what the architect intended. This happens constantly with engineers and architects, its got to happen with artists!
I honestly don't claim to be very knowledgable in art, or blacksmithing, just stating what i noticed, and how it made me feel (pun).
I must admit, i didn't really read arrogance on Paleys part, he actually seemed fairly humble. Since the economy is so fucked right now, i am seriously entertaining the thought of going back to college and taking more art classes. Construction is dying a cruel death here in california.

February 24, 2011
10:18 pm
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ironstein
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I think Hunter s. Thompson put it best "for every moment of triumph, every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled". Pretty much covers the art world Ries. Not a lot going on today that hasn't been done before.

February 24, 2011
11:07 pm
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Andy Gladish
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I'd have to agree that there's nothing truly new in art- the way I see it, your art is NEW in the same way that a baby is new- there's never been anything quite like it, certain people really get a thrill from it, but really, it's just a variation on a theme.
Not every child or art piece is going to get the appreciation it deserves, some are going to get a lot more than they really deserve, whattya gonna do about it?
Andy G.

February 25, 2011
1:45 am
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Danger
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Can Math be Creative? I thought it is just a line of consecutive numbers? I would say Paleys vocabulary is attractive to the romantic for beauty when crafting line and form but having no social message is it just a decorative and logistical exercise?

I don't see artist as elitist but there are many piece of shit people as there are crappy artist, hell being stupid is an art today!

Not sure if I've ever seen someone work in iron the way Pollak painted but Paley's interview as to intuition and his work "growing" as he reacts to hot metal is what fascinates me, I think Larry's pieces show that process very well.

Spoken like a true feces-flinger Jack.

Michael Dillon
http://dillonforge.com/

February 25, 2011
2:46 am
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Mark
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ironstein;7783 wrote: Since the economy is so fucked right now, i am seriously entertaining the thought of going back to college and taking more art classes. Construction is dying a cruel death here in california.

Damn Brian, c'mon up to Canada and you would be up to your eyeballs tying bar. Our industrial division is going insane working for mines and powerplants (btw, it's Sask Mark from IFI).

February 25, 2011
4:10 am
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JimB
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Oh gee that's a tough one... Art classes or rodbusting in Canada :giggle:

1+√5 / 2 = Φ

█▐▐█▐▐ ▌█▐ ▌▐

February 25, 2011
5:03 am
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ironstein
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Mark;7791 wrote: Damn Brian, c'mon up to Canada and you would be up to your eyeballs tying bar. Our industrial division is going insane working for mines and powerplants (btw, it's Sask Mark from IFI).

I have been staying busy bu it's tough to go from running a two thousand ton job to helping other foreman finish up jobs. There is literally no new work starting. I'm so done with Rebar anyway. The last few years of cortisone epidurals and waking up with numb cramped up hands has got me wishing I was doing anything else. I'm 37 and have three bone on bone vertebrae and carpel tunnel. When work slows down I have to get back on the iron pile and it hurts! There's a reason you see very few old rodbusters. This thread has got the romantic side of me longing for a new line of work as an artist! Hope all is good with you sask. If I didn't have a home and a wife I might just journey up there to work in a mine. I like me some tunnel work!

February 25, 2011
5:08 am
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ironstein
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JimB;7798 wrote: Oh gee that's a tough one... Art classes or rodbusting in Canada :giggle:

1+√5 / 2 = Φ

Now that's funny! Rodbusting ANYWHERE is about as shitty as it gets. The grass is always greener!

February 25, 2011
5:48 am
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Albert Paley is a good artist/blacksmith, and has enhanced the modern blacksmithing craft immeasurably. His notariety has helped us all.

That being said, Al Paley came from a very privileged background where money was never an issue. His father, William Paley, was CEO of CBS for years and amassed a fortune. The day to day living expenses were probably not too much of a struggle. That and the combined social/art circles of the family certainly helped open doors that few of us could even imagine.

Yeah, at times, I'm a little envious of that environment and the opportunities it offers. I sometimes wonder what it would be like to go into the shop, make what I want, and not have to worry about the day-to-day living expenses. Hard to imagine...

Then reality sets in. It really is the struggle that sets apart and forces us to grow.

Yo Al, how about a loan... 🙂

JE

February 25, 2011
1:58 pm
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ironstein
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Yeah, paley has done some amazing work. I'm not taking anything away from the guy and what he has done for blacksmithing, but with nearly unlimited resources I'm sure many who have replied to this thread could blow the minds of many. One of the gates in that interview was noted to have taken some thirty five thousand? Man hours. With backing and all the tools and equipment at your disposal it would be infinitely easier to accomplish the amazing. Can you imagine?

February 25, 2011
2:31 pm
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"Spoken like a true feces-flinger Jack." ?not sure what that's saying.

LOl JE well put.
I went to a gallery in London once for an OPENING. My god , what a pile of trustafarian crap the guy was useless and not naive but he was rich enough to dine with the Gallery owner so he was showing.
Great places for blacksmiths to go "openings" I went and made the best sale I had had. There was some guy finger waving over the wine (clue BOOZE) " whadya think"

"crap. utter time wasting crap. "
" oh I agree, what do you do?"

two 6ft candlesticks later I liked gallery visits.

PS the key to sales and shmoozing.. being into wine or drink.
2/3 of business deals are conducted over a drink.
Say you don't..
though I doubt many will admit to that.

February 25, 2011
3:32 pm
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Daryl
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I often catch myself saying to myself "I could of done that", but then think "well why haven't I". I admire these guys, most make absolutely beautiful stuff, not all, that is for sure, and they also have the talent to market their work. What these guys do is put work out with a price tag, so when the public sees my work, which far cheaper the price tag is not an absolute shock.

I donated a piece to a charity auction last week end, it was the first one that I was at that they actually marked what the retail value was. A very well dressed woman asked me if I was the maker and I said I was. Her question was "Can you actually make a living making things that have absolutely no use?" I didn't know how to reply. In the end they started the auction with my piece and initial bid was much higher than the retail price, and it sold for a little over 3 times retail, so it kind of took the sting out, of the comment. Turns out she bought the piece.

Now I walked away happy, but maybe, if I was more of a marketer that would be my new price, I'm really not smart enough to know. 🙁

February 25, 2011
5:16 pm
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andy blakney
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There is a market for art.I have never herd anyone say they dont like wrought iron.Blacksmiths need to educate the public constantly about what they do.Why would you avoid a market that buys useless things made out of scape from paying jobs you have run.The same skills and tooling can make useless things that people will pay you for.The same public might have other needs such as railings etc.I think pros need to price there creative projects inline with there shop rate.Simply because what do you when a customer says ."I dig that pin head deal I think it would be perfect for my project,lets see Im gonna need 30 of them suckers.What do get for them?" I take rejection put it in a sandwich and eat it .Let it fuel your fire.

February 25, 2011
5:44 pm
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John Lockie
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I agree 100% that the work being done in the video isn't my cup of tea. However...if it sold for that amount you can't fault the guy for pocketing the $$$.

I "build metal stuff" as I call it. I have purchased booths at art fairs and "bazaars" and have had good monetary success. I build ranch and farm signs, wall art, furniture and railings.

I recently was commissioned to do a couple art pieces for a bank, which they donated and they hang in a new building at Montana State University. That lead to another commission from a different branch of the bank for an art piece that was donated to an auction for a Boy and Girls Club. This time they went so far as to write a press release about me as an "artist" and take pictures of me with the bank president.

I find it all uncomfortable, but profitable. Mostly marketing is wording. Call it scrap and it is priced as scrap...call it art and it is priced as art.

My harshest critic is my wife. She likes some pieces and has them in the house. Others she hates and won't have around, yet they sell like hotcakes at a show.

For me I like misson style, straight lines and riveted joints. Yet for a paying customer, I will do scrolls and flowers for the challenge and the cash.

Larry - what you do every day is "art" even if you don't want to call it that. Keeping that mentality keeps you humble as a man, yet you have to accept the praise and the label for the $$ that it can bring.

My 2 cents - throw it out if you wish...

John

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