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6:01 pm
March 18, 2010
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Instructions by John Emmerling
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
About five years ago, a glass artist purchased the building next to mine and set up his
glass blowing studio. Since glass blowers use copious amounts of gas and efficiency is
paramount, I was immediately curious to see how his furnace and glory hole were heated.
He showed me his ribbon burners and gave a hand in making my own. Using a ribbon
burner has improved the performance of my forge immensely as the heat and gas
efficiency are truly amazing.
For those of us who prefer the control of a blown forge, a ribbon burner is probably
one of the most efficient and quiet. The beauty of this burner is that it can be made in
any configuration depending upon the size and shape of the heat desired. There are no
hot spots as in a venturi burner forge and combustion is complete at the burner and not
dependent on the swirling motion of a blown pipe forge. The forge itself can be made in
any configuration…pipe, tube, fire brick or just about anything one wants to heat steel
in. The ribbon burner can easily be built from materials found in most shops or obtained
locally. The castable refractory used in the burner can be purchased in a 50 pound bag,
which is enough to make many burners.
Step 1
Cut a length of tube to the desired length of the heat. In this case I used 3x3x3/16” by 10
inches long. (A burner length of ten to twelve inches works well in an eighteen to twenty
inch forge.) Measure in ½” from the outside edge of the length and width of the tube and
torch cut out that piece. In the center of the reverse side, take a 2” pipe nipple and mark
and cut out that round. Next, cut two pieces of 3/16” flat stock for the end caps. The last
part is the baffle. I used a 3” diameter punching and ground the edges flat to fit the inside
diameter of the tube. Any piece large enough to cover the hole will due. Drill several
holes in the baffle to allow some air to pass thru. (Fig 1)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step 2
Weld in the baffle on the pipe side of the tube first. It should be welded in 5/8-3/4” up
from the opening to allow some of the air/gas mixture to go thru the drilled holes and the
remainder to circulate to the edges of the burner. (Fig 2)[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com] Next, weld on the pipe nipple and end caps. The end caps can be flush or inset. Either
way, grind the welds flush (for mounting later). Make good welds as no air should
escape. (Fig 3)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step 3
Find a piece of ¾” plywood that is several inches larger than the burner and trace the
O.D. of the burner on it. Measure and mark the O.D. of the cutout as well. On this burner
the cutout measures 2”x9”. I used ½” spacing between the rows of air holes and 1”
between the holes. Alternate holes and rows. (Fig 4)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step 4
Buy a box of Crayola crayons and remove the paper. ( A utility knife works well.) On
a drill press, drill holes in the marked plywood to accommodate the crayons. Usually a
5/16” or 25/64” hole will work. The crayons should fit snug in the holes and the hole
depth should be about 3/8” deep. If your drill press has a stop, set it and keep the holes
consistent. The dam for the castable is made from 1”x3” (3/4 x2 ½”). Cut and screw
together to the size of the exterior of the burner. Attach the dam to the plywood with
screws. (Fig 5)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step 5
On the burner, tack weld on both sides a stopper (which will be removed later) ¾” up
from the opening. (Fig 6)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com] The stopper allows the burner to only penetrate the castable ¾” in depth. When cured, the
castable will be locked in place in the burner body.
Step 6
The castable refractory I use is Mizzou or HPV-ESX castable, both of which are
purchased at Harbison-Walker in Portland, OR. (www.hwr.com). They come in 50 lb.
bags and cost approximately $35.00. Other high temperature refractories can be used.
Your local refractory distributor or ceramics shop should be able to cross reference
brands.
Mix well with water to the consistency of peanut butter. Too much water (concrete
consistency) will make a weak burner and cause cracking. Mist the inside of the
wooden dam with WD-40 as a release agent. Using your fingers or a spoon, drop in
the mixture taking care not to break or loosen the crayons. Fill the dam nearly to the
top and allow for some displacement. Straighten the crayons as necessary. (Fig 7)[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com] Center, and insert the burner into the dam to the stopper depth. Lightly shake
the plywood to settle the castable around the inside edges of the burner.
The casting is now complete. (Fig 8)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step7
Allow several days setup time in cold weather. I take my burners next door to the glass
blower and sit them by his furnace. Overnight is adequate in that case. Remove the
screws to the wooden dam and plywood and with a screw driver/chisel, gently pry the
sides away. Grind off the two stoppers. Then, lay the burner on its side on the edge of a
table (with the castable supported by the table) and tap the plywood to break the crayons.
Remember, the castable is still green and care must be taken in handling the burner.
I like to drill out the crayons using an undersized bit in the drill press. Burning them out
in a coal forge is an option, but it is smelly and messy. (Fig 9)[/EMAIL]
[Image Can Not Be Found]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com]
Step 8
The burner mount depends upon your forge configuration. For a pipe forge, construct a
surround of ¼” x 2” flat stock and drill and weld nuts for bolts. Cut a hole in the pipe and
weld the surround to it.(Fig 10)[/EMAIL]
[EMAIL=gearhartironwerks@direcway.com] The castable should extend into the Kaowool of the forge about an inch. It is imperative
that the metal part of the burner NOT be inside the cavity of the forge. This burner can be
mounted in any position on the forge.
Notes
The first several firings should be short in duration and not at a high temperature to allow
the castable to cure. Once cured, welding heats using propane or natural gas are easily
attainable. I have found that a large blower (mine is a Centaur forge with a Baldor motor)
operating at capacity in combination with a gate valve to reduce the volume gives the
most control. Since gas pressure is not as great an issue when using propane (as in a
venturi burner), an orifice of 1/16” is adequate. With natural gas, ¼” seems to work well
for me having 2 lbs. of line pressure. As a rule of thumb, natural gas should be introduced
into the air line at a distance of at least nine times the diameter of the supply pipe. So, a
2” pipe times 9 equals 18 inches minimum from the burner. Since propane mixes more
readily with air, the distance can be shorter.
.
As the burner is long in relation to the forge, I weld heat shields on the pipe to limit direct
heat to the ends of the burner. (Fig 10)
Longevity of the castable depends upon usage and abuse. My forge run time averages
twenty-five hours plus per week, and that often includes on and off operation several
times daily. Expansion and contraction of the burner ultimately takes its toll. The
castable in my original nine inch long burner has been replaced once in the past five
years. Recasting the burner is simple and quick if you keep the wooden pieces.
Finally, safety comes first. Put on your safety glasses and turn on the air prior to lighting
the forge.
Although I do not always have time or the energy to check my email, I will be happy to
try to answer questions regarding this burner.
Happy Forging,
John Emmerling
Gearhart Ironwerks
Gearhart, Oregon
[/EMAIL][EMAIL=ironwerks@iinet.com]ironwerks@iinet.com[/EMAIL]
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
8:14 pm
August 29, 2010
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John,
Thank you again for your hard work making this tutorial and sharing it here with us. I am going to begin construction on a ribbon forge today, I am intending to post the build and operation and include photos. I think what Grant has in mind is to create complete tutorials. To include building, using and maintaining tools, equipment and even end products by the comments left by everyone in the thread. This makes a powerful tool, one we all can help create. Those looking for an answer can find it, or join an existing thread or get Grant to start a new thread and help find the answers. I think gleaning out the relevant information and making great tutorials will be a will prove a great asset for the community. Grant and, I assume, others have worked hard and it shows. I’m saying all this to convince you and the many other experienced smiths to post here when you have time, an answer from someone with your talent and knowledge here will prove a great boon for any who read your words.
Thank you again, Bob
it's been fun, later!
8:59 pm
March 18, 2010
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Just to be clear: Robert was instrumental in the creation of the new Tutorial section and how it will work. Thanks for all your pages ...............and pages ................and pages of input Bob!
:banghead: <-- from this to this --> :dance:
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
9:25 pm
August 29, 2010
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Grant,
I am amazed you were able to convert my ramblings into a working structure, my hats off to you. It is kind of you to call my words instrumental, thank you.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
9:45 pm
March 18, 2010
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I don't know how to convey to everyone just how much I want you guys to make this site what you want it to be. I just want to kick start it and use your input to take it to the next level.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
10:12 pm
August 29, 2010
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Grant,
I know that’s true, how about starting a thread with how the system is expected to work and see if others have ideas that may prove to be ideal. There are some great minds here, input from the entire community will be the thing that makes this work.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
11:37 pm
August 29, 2010
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John,
I’m asking you directly because you’re the only one I know of who has experience. I have a ton of questions I will keep the list short as I can.
1. Does the jet to surface area have a ratio or a minimum chamber size or is it just a pressure equalizer?
2. Do you know if the burner can be as long as you want, or are multiple burners required to add length?
3. Do these burners work well in an ‘open’ type forge?
[SIZE=2]4[/SIZE]. Is there an optimum burner size to forge size ratio?
I would love to see your forge in action do you have any videos you would post? I know I don’t ask much.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
1:13 am
May 13, 2010
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Bob seems to have asked most of the questions I had but the other one I had is do you know if anyone is running one of these successfully with one of the blowers that Grant imports for Blacksmith Depot. Dave Hammer mentioned that he had much better results running the Pine Ridge burner with a higher pressure blower.
1:56 am
March 18, 2010
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From the sound of Daves, I think the burner is too small. Many people are running the 164 blower. Our own Ron Wailes sells ribbon burner forges using that blower and the only complaint heard at the last conference was that it gets so damn hot so fast!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
2:09 am
May 13, 2010
Offline
I forget which blower I bought last year from the Kaynes I will have to take a look tomorrow. I assume you meant to say his blower is too small not his burner?
2:14 am
August 29, 2010
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Grant,
Do you think you could convince Mr. Wailes to post some information here? We (read that as I) should not burden John with endless questions with no help.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
2:15 am
March 18, 2010
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JNewman said:
I forget which blower I bought last year from the Kaynes I will have to take a look tomorrow. I assume you meant to say his blower is too small not his burner?
No, I meant what I said!:mstickle:
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
6:55 pm
August 29, 2010
Offline
I spoke to John Emmerling on the phone today, he’s a nice guy, and was willing to answer any question. However, he told me he’s very busy, and has little time to post and computers were not his thing, still I hope he’ll have a little time to come by and give the thread a boost. John explained to me that the burner is as simple as it looks. He stated the problem with making long burners is unequal expansion between the castable and the frame of the burner. His recommendation for long forges is multiple burners no longer than 10 inches, he said any longer and they tend to crumble quickly, and went on to say that three 10 inch burners would be good for a 40 inch forge! Any sword makers need a forge you can heat treat in?
I asked him why he thought that after over 5 years after he wrote his original article, and others have demonstrated how effective the design is, that it was not in wide spread use, he said he did not know. I’m scratching my head too. In my opinion it’s a case of those who are unable to figure out the air pressure to gas ratio and have nobody with experience to guide them, or just don’t have enough air pressure from too small of fan, and have voiced their frustration without an answer, perhaps the forum members here can change that. As for the question of burner size to forge size ratio.
The Pine Ridge Burner web page has a burner to cubic foot chart, can anyone attest to the correctness? They state a single 10 inch burner using LP gas is sufficient to operate a 2.5 to 3.5 cf chamber. That’s an incredibly large area for a single burner! If it can evenly heat that much area, or even half that, what can I say, ‘we doan need no stinkin’ venturi burners’. I need to get the materials together and get to building the forge.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
7:40 pm
Robert Suter;2550 wrote: I spoke to John Emmerling on the phone today, he’s a nice guy, and was willing to answer any question. However, he told me he’s very busy, and has little time to post and computers were not his thing, still I hope he’ll have a little time to come by and give the thread a boost. John explained to me that the burner is as simple as it looks. He stated the problem with making long burners is unequal expansion between the castable and the frame of the burner. His recommendation for long forges is multiple burners no longer than 10 inches, he said any longer and they tend to crumble quickly, and went on to say that three 10 inch burners would be good for a 40 inch forge! Any sword makers need a forge you can heat treat in?
I asked him why he thought that after over 5 years after he wrote his original article, and others have demonstrated how effective the design is, that it was not in wide spread use, he said he did not know. I’m scratching my head too. In my opinion it’s a case of those who are unable to figure out the air pressure to gas ratio and have nobody with experience to guide them, or just don’t have enough air pressure from too small of fan, and have voiced their frustration without an answer, perhaps the forum members here can change that. As for the question of burner size to forge size ratio.
The Pine Ridge Burner web page has a burner to cubic foot chart, can anyone attest to the correctness? They state a single 10 inch burner using LP gas is sufficient to operate a 2.5 to 3.5 cf chamber. That’s an incredibly large area for a single burner! If it can evenly heat that much area, or even half that, what can I say, ‘we doan need no stinkin’ venturi burners’. I need to get the materials together and get to building the forge.
Bob
I've seen the Pine Ridge burners and the are well made for the $. That being said, I still like making my own in any configuration I want. A bag of refractory will make many burners, and by keeping the wood dam and some crayons handy, recasting a burner is easy.
Also, it is true about the volume the burner will heat. I used a 3x3x10" long burner to heat a 2cu ft forge that had 3" of kaowool coated w/ITC 100. It easily went to welding temp using natural gas.
John
7:57 pm
August 29, 2010
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Guys, John told me about the 3” of kaowool and ITC 100 and how he easily forgewelds Damascus billets with his forge, I forgot to mention it. See John we need you here, I’m glad you’re watching, I’m bound to lead everybody astray with my rambling and forgetfulness.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
12:14 am
May 14, 2010
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This is a very long post, but hopefully it will be useful for those of you considering using ribbon burners...
I’d like to summarize my experience with the Pine Ridge Ribbon burner.
First of all, all the issues I first had with the burner were because of my un-familiarity with them, how blowers work and the suggestions that Pine Ridge provides for users of their burner. I bought the burner last year after reading that they were much quieter than other burners.
I finally got around to building a forge with the burner a few weeks ago. I already had a blower I had bought from Blacksmith Depot that was being sold as suitable for propane forges (their $100, 112 CFM blower). I thought this blower would be adequate.
I have the smallest burner that Pine Ridge sells. It is 4 x 4 inches. Pine Ridge states this burner will work with one to five inches of water column pressure. I built a forge with a 10 inch cylinder, 16 inches long. I used two inches of thermal blanket and put in a refractory floor.
My first experience with the forge was not very satisfying. The mild steel I was heating barely got beyond an orange heat, not the yellow I am used to forging at. This was using the blower at full out speed and adjusting the volume of propane for the best flame. The best flame is achieved in the same manner as adjusting an acetylene torch. You fiddle with the mixture till you get a stable flame. I use a high pressure propane regulator cranked up…. and control propane by volume with a needle valve. The air can be controlled with a dimmer (type) switch, or an air gate.
Without writing a book about how I learned the following, I will summarize what I know now…
[FONT=Calibri]1. [/FONT]The blower I first used would not, with the ribbon burner in the forge I built, produce the heat I wanted.
[FONT=Calibri]2. [/FONT]The blower I was using would provide 2.5 inches of water column pressure (I learned how to make a simple Manometer and measure active pressure).
[FONT=Calibri]3. [/FONT]Once I replaced the blower with one that would provide more active pressure, I was easily able to get the heat I want.
[FONT=Calibri]4. [/FONT]The Pine Ridge burner works amazingly well.
Pine Ridge recommends that the burn chamber NOT be less than .75 cubic feet for the burner I bought (I had misplaced the instructions I received with the burner). The forge I built has a burn chamber less than a half cubic foot. Although I was achieving the heat I want (with the right blower), I will bend to their recommendation and build another forge. I’m hoping to get even better results with it.
I believe these burners will work in all types of forges (sides and/or ends open), but the best heat will be provided with mostly closed forges. If you are using aspirated burners now and take advantage of that "blast" area, you won't have that anymore. If the forge has a lot of open area, I expect most of the heat will leave the confines of the forge.
A couple lessons about blowers I learned (primarily from Jeff Reinhardt). CFM ratings for blowers do not tell you what you need to know for blowers that are going to be used where there are air pressure requirements (e.g. on blown forges, at least not in every case). The blower has to be able to provide not only volume, but pressure. Blowers that provide the most pressure usually have “paddles” pushing air, rather than a squirrel cage. With most squirrel cage blowers (and some paddle blowers, depending upon design), if the air passage way is severely restricted, the squirrel cage will spin without continuing to try to force much air out (if any). When pressure is required for an application (like this), if the air passage is restricted, the blower needs to continue forcing air out, thus producing air pressure. One of the ways to measure that pressure (force), is with a water column, using a Manometer. Five inches of water column means that the air pressure pushes a column of water five inches. A simple manometer can be made with a clear plastic hose. All you need to do… is provide a port in the pressurized area to connect the hose to, then make a “U” with the plastic hose. Pour water in the hose so you have a “U” of water in the hose, without water getting near the burner. Put a mark on the hose (with a sharpie or tape) where the water is initially (blower not on). Turn on the blower and see how far the air pressure pushes the water. Measure that distance in inches and double it (the water is pushed down on one side of the loop and up on the other side, so if the water level changes one inch, the water has moved two inches). The diameter of the hose doesn’t matter (pressure is per square inch of surface). To make the port, I just drilled a hole in the air line (just below the burner) , put in 1/8" NPT threads, then screwed in a one inch nipple. Slipped the hose on it to do the measurements. When I was finished measuring, I just pulled the hose off and put a cap on the nipple. The pictures below were taken before I put the pressure measurement port in. I drilled the hole in the galvanized elbow just below the burner. The blower in the pictures is the one that produces 2.5 inches of water column pressure.
I found another blower I had that would produce 7.5 inches of water column pressure. With that blower, the forge works great. It worked satisfactorily at 5 inches, better at more.
Without a doubt, ribbon burners produce more heat with higher air pressures (and more propane). This is clearly stated by Pine Ridge on their web site. My forge was working with the blower producing two inches of water column pressure, but not at it’s best capability.
As I said before, the mixture of air and propane has to be adjustable and is set in the same way you set an Oxy/Acetylene torch flame. The sound and behavior of the flame makes it easy to set the combination. Start with a small flame, then increase the intensity. If you are not getting a good flame, increase the air. If that doesn’t produce the flame you want, bring the air back down a bit and increase the volume of propane . Then step up both to get the flame you want. The sound of the burner (light roar), as well as the elimination of the dragon breath tell you what the optimum combinations are. The burner can be set to work at many combinations of air pressure and volume of propane. The more air pressure (and propane), the more heat the burner will produce.
These are GREAT burners.
Now to get back to the initial reason I bought one… NOISE.
The burner is definitely quieter… The fan may not be. I have two fans that will produce enough pressure. Neither of them are as quiet as I would like. I’m sure there are fans out there that are quiet and will work. I’m still looking for one that doesn’t cost a fortune.
I LOVE the information provided about how to build these burners yourself, but I feel compelled to offer one bit of advice of caution. If you do build one, be sure you are a competent enough welder to make leak free welds (under pressure). It is NOT easy, even if you are fairly competent at welding. If you can't, we will probably be reading about you in the newspaper. Propane does not disperse into the air gracefully, it pools on the floor.
Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd
12:29 am
March 26, 2010
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Dave, thanks for taking the time to post all that useful info. I've been thinking about revamping my gas forge for awhile. Some of the things that I'm weighing up are going from atmospheric to blown, maybe a temperature controller, putting more thermal mass into it, an extractor hood to stop blasting all the hot exhaust gas into my workshop (or maybe look at at recuperative deign) ...... and now all this discssion about ribbon burners is yet more to add to the mix.
1:33 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
OK Dave, I guess I had missed the part about the 112 CFM blower. You're right about needing pressure with the ribbon burner. You could either use a bigger blower or a larger burner. You can push more fuel/air mix with more pressure or with more holes. I do think the 164 CFM blower would do the job, but a bigger burner would be better. With straight pipe burners, I see a lot of forges running the 112.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
3:46 am
May 13, 2010
Offline
Thanks for the long post Dave. I wonder if there is a design differerence between John's burners and the Pine Ridge burners that causes a difference in air pressure requirements. I see Pine Ridge has low pressure burners and high pressure burners and you mentioned that you have the low pressure, and maybe John's require less pressure still.
3:55 am
March 18, 2010
Offline
Yeah, probably, kinda. Just that at a given pressure you can only push so much through each hole of a certain size. So, you use more pressure, more holes or bigger holes.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
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