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Second attempt at a forge weld
October 2, 2023
8:04 pm
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jmsoifvet
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October 2, 2023
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So I'm having a little problem with my forge welds. This is my second attempt at Damascus, attempted a 9 piece stack 1095,80crv2,15n20 pattern repeating for the 9 layers. Well the bottom layer of 15n20 appears to have not forge welded to the 80crv2. I prepared both sides of each piece by grinding it down with a flap wheel until it was nice and shiny until the last 3 which I had to use a standard grinder disk. Then wiped each with rubbing alcohol to get rid of my skin oils, clamped it all together, placed 15 inches total of weld with 7018 stick welding rods so that’s 1,050,00lbs of tensile strength. Ok on to my issue is the final layer of 15n20 appears to not be sticking to the 80crv2. Pictures below Any help would really be appreciated. 15n20 side 1095 side. It was cooling in these pictures what Im concerned about is the clear difference in color from the top to bottom on the 15n20 side, each heat cycle I brought it up to a yellow orange color before hammering. Im wondering if that looks like a a large delams to any one else?

October 3, 2023
6:41 am
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billyO
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Unfortunately, those still pictures don't really show much.   It's hard to compare one side to the other, especially with still pictures, because it takes some time (albeit just a little) to turn the piece around, and the piece is continually cooling once out of the forge. 

How I would want to see un-welded parts is to look at the profile and see if there's a distinct line/border of different heat colors in the billet, or if one part cools significantly quicker than the rest of the billet (assuming the billet is of uniform thickness).

Another piece of info that'd be nice is what kind of forge/burner you are using.  It could be that one part of your forge is hotter, and even though it looks like you are forging at dusk, it looks to me like there's still too much light to accurately see how uniform a bright yellow-orange heat  immediately exiting the forge.  The cooler/darker the piece gets, the easier it is to see differences under light.

as always

peace and love

billyO

October 3, 2023
6:03 pm
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jmsoifvet
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October 2, 2023
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Videos and pictures

Vid1    

Vid 2

noticed a central delam about the time i ran out of propane so I cut the edges off and saw this 

Pic 1

Gave it a little tap over the horn of my anvil down the center and it fell apart looking like this down the middle

Pic 2

Managed to get the outside delam apart and it looks like this inside 

Pic 3

Did I just not clean it enough on the central or did the heat just not get that deep into my stack? Also any ideas on the outside delam?

October 4, 2023
5:30 pm
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billyO
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Thanks for the additional pics/vids.  I agree with Eric, probably nowhere near hot enough (unless you're using a hydraulic press to set the weld).  Don't forget (or if you don't know) that the type of welding we're doing in the forge is called 'diffusion' welding where we aren't actually melting the steel to make a puddle, but rather, getting the atoms of the adjacent pieces close enough together that they are sharing electrons.  With a strong enough press and clean steel, you can diffusion weld at room temps, because the press has enough force and is able to squish the entire billet at once.  When hitting with a hammer, you compress the area directly under the hammer, but the surrounding steel outside the face of the hammer actually separates a little, and the harder you strike, the more this happens.  This is why you'll read that the first heat is done with gentle hammer blows.  And because we're using gentler blows, you need the steel to be as hot and soft as possible to get the atoms close enough together across the whole billet.

In my experience, the heat colors on video appear a lot brighter than in real life.  If you take a look at my video of the new forge at our shop, it looks (to me anyway) like the forge is at a bright yellow heat, but when I took the video, it was what I'd call a bright orange heat, not yellow. 
Of course, your phone may have a different filter, so take what I wrote with a grain of salt.

as always

peace and love

billyO

October 5, 2023
6:42 pm
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jmsoifvet
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No need to tred softly Im not a snow flake, I'm ex military I can take constructive criticism lol…So after reviewing the video a few times and consulting a “color chart” for heat it appears I was extremely lucky to get as much forge welded as I did. color chart i found
so in the video it looks like I was around 900 degrees when you consult the chart in reality it was somewhere in color between 1400-1600 in color. Im assuming I need to be in the 1700+ range to get it to weld and move? I noticed that as many “heat, beat, repeat” cycles as I did the steel didn’t move or compress much maybe like a 1/4” from the original size of the stack….do you think that’s the issue? I just need to let it “cook” a little longer? Possibly get some more bricks to contain the heat? By the way I want to thank both of you BillyO and Eric for taking the time to respond and will take any advice to heart. I definitely understand that Im doing something that has a learning curve, hence why Im reaching out to more experienced people to attempt to make fewer mistakes.

October 19, 2023
2:22 pm
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Donk
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yes, I think the color should be minimum hi orange to yellow, that looks cherry red. I have a pic the same as yours but about yellow-orange, starts to bulge a tad at end when you smack it.  (sorry can't find will look after swapfest on my old computer).  Any time I see a black area like that one side is too cold.  Don't let them soak for all day, but as Eric says let it come to heat. your prep sounded right, I do the tap tap light blows to start the weld,   Seems like a bit more heat and practice and you are on right path.

-DONK

 

ps. make sure your burner flame is tuned to oxygen low, so you aren't just oxidizing your billet.

October 19, 2023
7:57 pm
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jmsoifvet
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Update: Sorry I didn’t take pictures this time, but made some headway…I cleaned up the center of the billet then Sealed it with 7018 weld then brought it up to around 1700 per the color chart I posted earlier, used “gentle quick” hits with the hammer (hand hammering all the way, all I have right now) did 6 heat cycles like this then went full hog and I lost count after that. I split it down the center to double my layer count repeated the same and the billet sounds solid but I can’t seem to get it any hotter than orange/1700 and the steel is moving very slowly. The doubled layer billet started out 3”x2”x1” now its 2”7/8 x1”1/2x1”1/6 after 4 hours of work and smacking it as hard as I can…am I just running into the old construction adage of “grab a bigger hammer”? Lol currently using a 2.5 lbs hammer 

February 21, 2024
10:13 pm
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danielpartin
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nope. I know no one who is in any hurry to see the the old guard gone. Please, take this to heart. I (and many, many others) value the knowledge and companionship. And, nope, you don't get to go... there, decision made.

looking forward to chatting into the night this spring... and you need to help with the coal forges that I'm bringing and don't really know how to use. So there.

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