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8:58 pm
May 13, 2010
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I quoted 4 tapered shaft keys with an L on the heavy end yesterday. They are 1.25"x2"x11" with the short leg being 3" long with a section of 1.5"x2". I would have to leave 1/8" machining all over and forge them from 4140.
In some ways I feel my price is a little high because the machine shop could rough them out of flat bar pretty quickly, but their customer has asked for forged keys. On the other hand it is a pretty small job and 4140 is not that cheap, so it has to be worth my while doing them.
I would love to have a couple of responses and I will let you know what I quoted. I am paying about 1.50/lb for 4140 round and I have rectangular stock on the shelf left over from another job.
9:45 pm
March 22, 2010
Offline2:52 am
March 18, 2010
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Depends on who you're quoting somewhat, but I'd charge $100.00 for anything that was 1-1/4 X 2 X 11, 4140. One of those jobs that I wouldn't care if I got it or not. If I got it I'd want to be happy I got it. I mean, you'll be lucky to be done with it by lunch. Like you say, they could machine it out, so if they want forged they should pay for forged, by God. Worth a hundred just thinking about it. Where do I send my bill?
Heck, I used to make "forged bar" and they paid a whole lot more than they would for bar stock. At this point, if I got the job I'd farm it out to Larry!:bounce::bounce::bounce:
Can I add this for anyone: What ever you decide to charge don't hum and haw around and say things like "how about a hundred each" like it's a negotiation. Say one-hundred each, like it's stamped on the bottom. Then go back to what you were doing.
Time is money - money talks - and talk is cheap!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
3:41 am
August 2, 2010
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John, I didn't take the time to figure the weight or material cost for those keys but I'd guess you would have to get a minimum of your shop rate times four plus the cost of materials plus a small percentage for profit to make that job worthwhile. Even if everything goes well you'll have four hours in bidding, production, and packing time and since you are a bit of a perfectionist (or you wouldn't be making patterns too) you will probably take longer to make sure all is right. I'd guess you'll be at Grant's numbers at least but probably a little higher would be fair to yourself. (I'm better at giving pricing advice than I am at taking it myself, I'm trying to get better but too much work is going out too cheaply.) Steve G
5:26 am
March 22, 2010
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Mmm... Well I would put more stock in Grants idea than mine... I see it as $50 in material and an hour, hour and a half's work... If they are just ruffed out and getting machined a couple of stops and blocks is all the tooling required?
I am on the other end of the spectrum from Grant in that regard.... Grant is right on all counts... But I am broke and work is hard to come by...Right now the shop only gets maybe 20-30 hrs of billable work a week(I still am there 60+ though)... If I can knock out a quick job and put $150 in my pocket instead of sitting on the couch and watching futurama reruns Im gonna do it...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:07 am
March 18, 2010
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Well, there you go..........................I like Futurama! Go Bender!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
1:13 pm
May 13, 2010
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Thanks for the responses guys.
I figured roughly $15 for material marked it up to $20. Figured 1/2 hr each $50. So $70 per key. Which seemed a little high but as Grant said it's only a little job so I won't lose sleep over not getting it, and unfortunately if I do get the job it won't be cash in my back pocket it will be net 60-70 days. If there had been 50 or 100 of them I might have been closer to Larry's price as it is I wonder if I should have been closer to Grant's. Things have been a little slow here lately but I did pick up a nice pattern to make a few hours earlier. I have not heard from this customer yet so I don't know if he or I got the job.
I am going to ask a different machine shop that sometimes does work for me what he figures the rough out and material would cost him so I know what a machine shops "percieved value" of this is. I am spending more time on second guessing my price than I did on quoting it but I wanted to make sure that I was not way out to lunch one way or the other on pricing. This sized work is right where I think I can be most competitive, as it is too big for someone with a 100-150lb hammer to be efficient. But it is small enough that it is a PITA job for the big forging shops in the area running 1200 ton and up presses.
1:24 pm
May 13, 2010
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Larry L;6839 wrote: Mmm... Well I would put more stock in Grants idea than mine... I see it as $50 in material and an hour, hour and a half's work... If they are just ruffed out and getting machined a couple of stops and blocks is all the tooling required?
I am on the other end of the spectrum from Grant in that regard.... Grant is right on all counts... But I am broke and work is hard to come by...Right now the shop only gets maybe 20-30 hrs of billable work a week(I still am there 60+ though)... If I can knock out a quick job and put $150 in my pocket instead of sitting on the couch and watching futurama reruns Im gonna do it...
Is 20-30 billable hours not enough Larry? I have a figure that the shop should average every week, and 20-30 billable hours gets me there based on the work. This is assuming I didn't screw up a quote or the job. That's not to say I am not there 50-60 hours a week as well between quoting, other paperwork, misc. shop work, killing time on this forum, and making up those screw ups sometimes.
2:37 pm
August 14, 2010
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I do my figuring based on 20 hours of billable work per week too. Looks like Larry should be raising his shop rate enough to let him watch Futurama or pay for experimental stake anvil forging.
2:57 pm
November 8, 2010
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I bet he could fly down to Mexico and find his own bending robot to help increase his productivity 🙂
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2:59 pm
March 22, 2010
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I dropped my shop rate about 2 years ago It had been $85/hr for ever and when things where better I had raised it to $105.... My biggest client dropped off by about 80% when I raised my rate... I dont know how much of it was just timing but I do know they thought $105 was too high and it reflected in the amount of work they brought in the shop... I had a spell where three months in a row I didn't bring in enough to cover basic expenses and I dropped my rate to try and be more competitive... I think it helped. When things get better I'll try and raise it again but for now I feel like its what the market will bear
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
3:16 pm
March 22, 2010
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Wouldnt it be nice to have a Bender Bending Rodriguez about? Booze chugging cigar smoking flame farting kleptomaniac to make your life easier?
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
1:44 am
Larry L;6860 wrote: I dropped my shop rate about 2 years ago It had been $85/hr for ever and when things where better I had raised it to $105.... My biggest client dropped off by about 80% when I raised my rate... I dont know how much of it was just timing but I do know they thought $105 was too high and it reflected in the amount of work they brought in the shop... I had a spell where three months in a row I didn't bring in enough to cover basic expenses and I dropped my rate to try and be more competitive... I think it helped. When things get better I'll try and raise it again but for now I feel like its what the market will bear
I never, or rarely bill by the hour. When making furniture,lighting,fire screens etc, if I billed by the hour,for the most part, I'd lose my ass. It seems to me that the longer one is in this business, the more efficient one becomes, and also, more aware of what the product is worth.
For example, if I am commissioned to make a simple flat free standing bronze fire screen that is forged (lightly hammered) with offset corners and copper rivets in the corners and several in the field, that screen can be made in one day, not counting any patina the clients wants. So, figure $400. max for materials, and $85./hr plus expendables and you're around a grand. If you charge that figure, you're probably leaving money on the table, and even worse, may not get the job. Why? Because clients who can appreciate and afford bronze (ie. bronze has a certain cache) may not think you worthy, or capable of doing the work.
It's a strange phenomena, but one that must be taken into consideration when dealing with clients who can afford custom work. Charge too little, you don't get the job, charge too much, you don't get the job. So, what's the answer?
Knowing your clientele, and what your product is worth.
For me, not all clients pay the same price for the same product. I know it sounds wacky, but that's just the way it is. That's a personal choice when making a profit and I'm certain we all do that.
We're artists! We make unique pieces to make our clients lives feel more fulfilled. That above all, is what we all must understand, and charge for.
2:04 am
March 22, 2010
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Yeah John but I am not building Bronze fire screens or furniture... My bread and butter is building industrial bits.... There are many things I dont really charge by the hour for but the client I am talking about they are a straight time and materials deal.. So what ever it takes they pay it, no bid, no questions.... In many ways I wish everything could be like that.... I never loose my ass on one of there jobs because if it goes south they pay me for my time and what ever else goes into making it right...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
2:24 am
Larry L;6884 wrote: Yeah John but I am not building Bronze fire screens or furniture... My bread and butter is building industrial bits.... There are many things I dont really charge by the hour for but the client I am talking about they are a straight time and materials deal.. So what ever it takes they pay it, no bid, no questions.... In many ways I wish everything could be like that.... I never loose my ass on one of there jobs because if it goes south they pay me for my time and what ever else goes into making it right...
I know where you're coming from, and can appreciate it. No offense. Just a different perspective on my part.
JE
4:45 am
NWBA Member
Board Member
April 26, 2010
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John Emmerling;6883 wrote:
For me, not all clients pay the same price for the same product. I know it sounds wacky, but that's just the way it is. That's a personal choice when making a profit and I'm certain we all do that.
This practice is called "price discrimination." Examples include Swift Premium bacon selling for much more than Tomboy bacon even though they are the same product from the same plant only in a different wrapper. Ditto for Cosmin brand fly poison and RexAll brand fly poison.
There was an article in the Hammer's Blow a while back about a high-dollar concert violinist playing his Strat in the N.Y. subway at rush hour. He got enough in an hour to buy lunch. Playing his normal high-class venues, he gets enough in an hour to buy a used car. Venue and presentation make the difference. Folk have different expectations from Carnegie Hall than from the subway.
Affluent people insist on buying a superior product, and they will often settle for a superior wrapper. Just don't tell them that!
No matter where you go... there you are.
2:52 pm
May 13, 2010
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John Emmerling;6883 wrote:
Knowing your clientele, and what your product is worth.
For me, not all clients pay the same price for the same product. I know it sounds wacky, but that's just the way it is. That's a personal choice when making a profit and I'm certain we all do that.
I understand John and that is what I am trying to do here. Establishing what others would charge is part of establishing their value as is talking to the other machine shop. I only have one customer that I work time and materials for, one other I give them a price when I am done. All others I have to give them a price before getting the job, so they get no indication of my shop rate.
My rate slides up and down based on amount of work in the shop, PITA factor for the job, how interesting the job is, how boring the job is, how fast the customer pays his bills, how much work I get from this customer, How fast they want the job, Odds of the job going bad and having to be rebuilt, customers attitude, opportunity for the job becoming repeat work (have to be careful with this one) and probably more that I cannot think of right now. Generally I can make more forging than patternmaking now that I am tooled up better and am better learning the right jobs to take on and the ones to pass on. So I am able to charge a higher rate for forging. A few years ago it was the other way around I was making much more on the patterns.
11:04 pm
August 5, 2010
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so............... did you get the order :confused: 🙂
1:37 am
March 22, 2010
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The following is from a publication I'm working on. My products were all small, trinkets and household stuff and spent over ten years forging products out of my small garage shop.
Everyone has their own pricing system, this is my opinion.
Pricing
At first I took a good look at other forged wares and priced mine accordingly. Just because it takes you 2 hours to forge something doesn’t mean it is worth more than one forged in 15 minutes by someone who has more experience. Some forged work is quicker to make once the fixtures, tooling and methods are in place and you have hours of experience making it, practice, practice, practice. Numerous times I have compared prices on my product list and adjusted prices accordingly, even decreasing a price when it seemed to high.
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