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2:40 am
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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Okay, I am pretty far from "Traditional", but like everyone else, I am attracted to forging, as opposed to cut and paste fabrication.
And I often find myself suffering from "welding guilt" when I weld a portion of a piece that is largely forged.
I am not trying to do period work, and I have no philosophical opposition to welding- In fact, I really LIKE welding. But nonetheless, I tend not to use visible welds much in my forged work.
Often, I will tig weld a joint where it doesnt show, for various reasons. Speed, cost, strength- I know a tig weld will hold, and, on paying jobs, I have to design to a time and money budget that may not allow for every detail to be mechanically fastened, mortise and tenoned, or forge welded.
And my design esthetic really isnt that old fashioned- lately I have been doing a lot of stuff I call "Rustic Deco", which is definitely pretty 20th century in its look.
So there is no real reason that I cant weld things- and, often I do- but I still feel like I am cheating a bit when I do weld.
I know some people just work in sheds, without electricity, and dont weld for religious and ideological reasons- but most of us own welders, and use them when appropriate- but I would guess a lot of people still set challenges to themselves to try to minimize welding.
Its like its cheating...
2:43 am
March 1, 2011
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it's the thought that counts
2:55 am
March 22, 2010
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Ries I feel your pain, But to tell you the truth I think its a conspiracy, The people who I admire and strive to be like all would use a welder when it is prudent and reasonable to do so... I know more than one person who puts a tack on before setting a collar or rivet.. Or will weld up a real tenion joint on the bottom just as extra insurance.. The vast majority of the "anti everything" group are hobbyists and purists and I dont fit in to either group... We have been told we should be ashamed for the blasphemy, screw that... I do what I do... You dont have to like it.... If you want to use 700 year old pure iron, in a charcoal forge worked on a rock to make your pot hangers or S hooks more power to you... Im not gonna apologize for using a welder:mstickle:
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
2:56 am
March 1, 2011
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And I'll follow that with a question for ya.
I've made some leaves and branches I'm joining, wont be M&Ting them, or forge welding them at this point. I have some limitations here, being off grid, and as cheap as can be. Have a spot of coal, but it's hard come by in southern oregon, so I've been burning fist sized chunks of dry madrone, burns pretty hot, and makes fairly long lasting coals. My welder is a miller Legend AEAD200LE genset, CC only.
So far I've only stuck them together with 6013, then heated the joint and worked the weld with a peen. Have thought about getting a HF for tig, and learn that. How do your tig welds come out, could ya take a pic for me? ty, Russell
3:13 am
March 18, 2010
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Gas welding is too often overlooked in my opinion. It's the only non-forge welding process I can think of that can be left "natural" and look like it belongs. TIG comes in a distant second. I love gas welding and had no trouble doing it just with TIG experience - came natural. O/A torch and some coat hangers and you're ready to go.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
3:21 am
March 22, 2010
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Yeah Id have to say Grant is on the money...
But to answer your question if I dont want you to see the weld I can pretty much make it go completely away.. TIG is faster than O/A welding but only slightly.. I think you have more control and can weld thin stuff with less heat...
Tell me what you want a pic of and I'll weld it and shoot you one...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
3:21 am
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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I would definitely pick gas welding over stick welding for most things- I went several years with a gas rig being my only welder, and gas welded everything.
But once I got a tig, the ability to weld very different thicknesses together, quickly and without heating up the whole piece, makes me use the tig more.
Today, I sat at the bench for a while with the tig torch on my left, the gas torch on my right, going back and forth between the two- but the gas was mostly for spot heating for setting collars- the tig machine will give a weld that looks better than the gas, in my opinion, faster, and with much more localized heat- meaning less heat discoloration to clean up, less warpage, and less melting- I was welding 1/8" to 5/8" round- and to get the 5/8" hot enough, the little 1/8" woulda been liquid...
I dont NOT weld- I just think about it before I do it- which, I think, is a good thing.
Most of my favorite big ironwork features gas welding at the very least- stuff like the great Italian, French, Dutch, Spanish, and Belgian Art Noveau and Art Deco work all has gas welding in it. And they used machines, too, lotsa power hammers, hydraulic rivet sets, and shears.
3:30 am
March 18, 2010
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Yeah, it depends on the finish required. If you have discoloration, you're not welding black iron forgings together. I like the way you can take forged mild steel stems and leaves, gas weld them together and everything will clean-up about the same.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
3:47 am
March 1, 2011
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sounds like gas it is, I havnt done much gas welding
4:28 am
June 9, 2010
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I sometimes like to throw a nice bead conspicuously in a piece, just cause. I mean, we're here, we got it, we use it. A lot of people drool over nice welds. My bike on top of my car has always been worth more than the car and I've still never had a new one(bike or car). That two wheeled crowd pays through the nose for pretty beads.
Ever since I got a tig (oxy/acetylene for too long) I have been a world class weld forger!:happy: Its amazing the beating a good tig weld will endure.
4:37 am
NWBA Member
Board Member
April 26, 2010
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Does the finished thingie DO what it needs to DO?
Does the finished thingie LOOK like it needs to LOOK?
If the answers to both of the above are "yes," then a good job was done regardless of which techniques were used.
Did it come in on/under budget or over budget? (I'm often glad to be just a lowly hobbyist & not have to worry about this one.)
Guilt is for people who wish they had done something different.
No matter where you go... there you are.
4:53 am
January 18, 2011
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Haven't seen the term MIG anywhere on this thread. I get great results with mine. Doing leaves and such in tight places using either tig or oa ties up my left hand with filler rod when I could be holding a leaf, grape,acorn, etc in it. Cleanup is what it is.....bm
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss
6:43 am
December 12, 2010
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I come at this differently. I started with stick welding pipe corrals, then moved on to mig and then tig. Lots of projects were done entirely with welding and I never thought about feeling guilty. When I started to incorporate some blacksmithing features to projects, I never thought about not being true to say my "tig" welding. But, now I'm wondering if I should feel guilty, just kidding. I try to use any method/technique that comes to mind that gets me to my goal and I seem to use more blacksmithing details as I get better at smithing. I'm working on a project now that I used the mig, and the tig welders and included some mortis and tenon details. For me, what ever works and you enjoy doing is good.
9:22 am
August 14, 2010
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I think there is some version of "Good, fast or cheap. Pick two." that applies here.
There's no point mortise-and-tenoning two bars together so that the work is invisible. If I am gonna use a forged mechanical connection, that punched hole is going to bulge out with some sexy curves and there is going to be a big faceted rivet head on the outside. If I want an unadorned right angle joint, then it's getting welded. (Or maybe drilled and tapped, I do love how there's no grinding/clean up on a mechanical connection.) Even if I were unconstrained by time and budget restraints there are still places where a welded (non-blacksmith ;-)) joint is best.
I think that the welding guilt may come from all of the badly welded or badly designed welded work we see floating around. It's as though picking up the welder puts us in bad company. "If all I do is weld some forged parts on here, how is my work any different from pottery barn?"
11:10 am
August 5, 2010
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Ries;8491 wrote: Okay, I am pretty far from "Traditional", but like everyone else, I am attracted to forging, as opposed to cut and paste fabrication.
And I often find myself suffering from "welding guilt" when I weld a portion of a piece that is largely forged.
I am not trying to do period work, and I have no philosophical opposition to welding- In fact, I really LIKE welding. But nonetheless, I tend not to use visible welds much in my forged work.
Often, I will tig weld a joint where it doesnt show, for various reasons. Speed, cost, strength- I know a tig weld will hold, and, on paying jobs, I have to design to a time and money budget that may not allow for every detail to be mechanically fastened, mortise and tenoned, or forge welded.
And my design esthetic really isnt that old fashioned- lately I have been doing a lot of stuff I call "Rustic Deco", which is definitely pretty 20th century in its look.
So there is no real reason that I cant weld things- and, often I do- but I still feel like I am cheating a bit when I do weld.
I feel very much the same about this. I think it may be more about the transitions between components than the actual "tradition" of forge welding. My sculpture teacher, back in college, told me that he was always disappointed when he was able to tell what type of "pre-existing" material was used in a sculpture. Like a 2 x 4 screwed to plywood. He told me that my work would always be more interesting if I modified the original dimensions of the stock. It's almost like you want to make the viewer struggle to figure out how the piece was assembled. That's why I prefer the look of a forge weld and also why I spend a lot of time trying to make my mig welds blend in :redface:. It's nothing to feel guilty about, you just prefer the more graceful transitions associated with the old school.
Also, those hard-core purists don't realize that a "back in the day" blacksmith would have killed for the convenience of a welder.
2:58 pm
January 18, 2011
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The battle re the use of ''modern''welding processes between ''purists'' and for lack of a better word ''modernists'' has been raging for over a 100 years!
I have a book of Edgar Brandt's work, and circa 1908 he was getting flak about it, ''Several of his contemporaries disavowed these procedures (oxy/ace welding). Desvallieres
(a high end smith)disdained the use of modern tools, feeling that the only worthwhile ironwork was that done by a single artisan using the ancient methods, mainly working hot iron hot at the anvil''..........
Edgar Brandt was a genius, his work speaks for itself.
And what does that make us ''mix it up smiths''?, Certainly not hacks.............bm
Edit; Antoni Gaudi also used oxy/ace welding..........
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss
5:14 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
Offline
Actually, part of my "guilt" is from getting razzed for the last ten years by "true path" blacksmiths.
Around here, Ol Jack of the woods would qualify for that- but especially in the east, there are a bunch of guys who really HATE anything that came after about 1800, and who were pretty vocal on the old internet blacksmithing sites- the old Junkyard, in particular, including a guy named John, who I tusseled with on the issue a few times.
On the old Junkyard, I was pretty much the poster boy for the decline of all that was good and true in the world- they even called me a "hippie"- it tells you a lot when the epithet for crass modernity is somebody from the sixties, eh?
And I dont really mind it- I actually think a lot about Constant Volume Forging, and what it is and isnt, and why I do what I do, as a result of Roger and John giving me so much shit.
Hasnt changed the fact that I am a heretic.
I have 4 mig machines, 2 tigs, and 2 stick machines, along with a gas rig and a spot welder- so I am far from pure.
I really think in the last 30 years a new esthetic has evolved, different from the one 100 years ago, that is a sort of pride in doing things the hard way- and its a valid style, one that I often like.
It is more common on the east coast than here, although we do have some west coast practitioners.
It features a sort of dazzling braggart style of effortless forging, fancy punching, and upsetting, with the craftsmanship and the process being the whole point of it.
And in that style, welding is seen as an admission of defeat- of not being good enough to macho your way thru without welding.
As I said- I like a lot of this stuff. And I get why they do what they do.
My own work is just a bit different.
But the fact that those guys have raised the question makes me think about it when I make stuff, and I like thinking.
6:06 pm
January 18, 2011
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This reminds me a little of the thread on ifi, ''working at the anvil'',most of the contributors
are trying to pin down the ''correct'' way to address the anvil (if your right handed the horn should be on the left,no,no the horn be up your ass).....bla bla........
I did say ''a little''Ries, not the same as.
When the job calls for it I go traditional. Usually for me when the client hears of the added costs involved, they aren't so rich all of a sudden.......bm
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."
— Dr. Seuss
6:23 pm
May 15, 2010
Offline
I don't feel guilty at all, I do however think mortis tenon joinery rivets and such connections is what really creates visually interest in the work but there is nothing like a well placed stack of dimes if you can pull it off. I will use about any method needed to build, I just wish my friction welder wasn't broke, oh well I guess there is always explosive welding!
:bomb::bomb::bomb:
Michael Dillon
http://dillonforge.com/
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