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5:44 pm
Soemthing I have noticed, and maybe I am wrong, but is there a modern trend going for younger guys in the fabrication game to buy more tools instead of making them? I just seem to see looking back at iforgeiron blueprints and stuff, and other blacksmithing websites that the older guys made alot more stuff instead of getting the commercially made equivalent.
6:04 pm
March 22, 2010
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Well one thing Sam is there's lots of cheap stuff to buy. The old-timers didn't have the option, if they wanted it they had to build it
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
9:27 pm
NWBA Member
July 19, 2011
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When I first started out, scrap steel was available at give away prices, Propane was 35 cents a gallon and coal was 15.00 a hundred. It is difficult today to hand forge tongs for $35.00 or a hammer for $45.00. I still have thick spring stock, both flat and round to make dies and top tools but this stuff doesn't seem to be available anymore.
I think that making your own tools is part of learning the trade and the craft, but having quality tools at an affordable price does make a big difference.
When I teach younger people I have them make their own punches, chisels and at least one pair of tongs and scrolling pliers. At least this starts them out in the right direction:happy::banghead::happy:
12:44 am
September 23, 2011
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I make a lot of my own tools. A lot of what I use is pretty custom, not readily available and expensive. But sometimes its worth it just to buy it. I don't have a power hammer or a press. I forged some tongs and a couple hammers last week, and doing by hand, by yourself takes some time and energy. Sometimes its just easier to buy it, if the price is right.
Saign
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http://www.saignc.com
2:37 am
NWBA Member
April 19, 2010
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ya i make a lot of my own tools also...i usually cant afford to buy a lot of tools at current prices... about the only tools i buy are eather way too big for me to make or antique and hard to find...
3:30 am
NWBA Member
July 28, 2010
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I guess you could call me an older, younger member, or maybe a younger older member? Age wise I'm feeling my years, though I'm a newer blacksmith so I can qualify as a younger member. (I found a way to justify calling myself younger heehee.)
I make most of my tools, the hard way. Spent a good chunk of time today working on a smaller ball peen hammer head, made 5 different punches yesterday, as well as a center punch, amongst a bunch of other little things, Such as a pair of tweezers (had a metal splinter the other day which prompted me making a "blacksmith knife" and the making of tweezers.) But then volunteering at the Fort I should make the bulk of my own tools I feel.
Though I have to admit it is tempting at times to buy stuff it is much more fun and more of a learning thing to be able to be self sufficient and going back to our roots we were the tool makers. We made the tools to make the tools So I think we should be able to make our own stuff. But I can see once getting past a certain point, (especially for commercial blacksmiths) where it is just much quicker and easier to buy stuff when one considers the time and effort as well as material and energy cost of making it.
So for the "newer/younger" I think it is important to at least at first make your own tools. Definitely teaches you an appreciation for for the tools and for the repairing of such of you have to make and repair everything yourself.
4:16 am
Interesting. I was just prompted to think about this after getting some info from an old member of ifettleiron some may remember Jr Strasil aka Irnsrgn about a handbuilt bender tool he had made, think like a small scale hossfeld.
I was just struck by how commonplace it seemed that more often then not the old timers would come up with tools the equivalent or better then tools available now, which makes sense as you say Larry that some of the available tools were non existent then.
It makes me enjoy and try to think in that fashion of instead of buying a tool to try and make it and make my own version of it. It also has me worried that because we can so easily purchase tools that we might lose the mindset of creating them.
In a way it's good, we have a solid base to build on IE the tools that came before, we can improve upon when we build them ourselves, but bad in a way that we might lose the ability to create an original idea from which to build off.
4:50 am
June 9, 2010
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I mean, there's tools and there's tools. A lot of the hand stuff like the tongs you've shown are nothing but good to make if only for the practice. But acquisition, it's part of the game. Once you get rolling and the $ starts coming in, well, you have to spend some. Better to be on the prowl and be active about buying than purchase when you need it. At that point you are paying retail, and that sucks. Those stories you hear about "made it back on the first job", that's what you are shooting for.:happy:
5:33 am
Though it's a factor I am not thinking about business wise and making a buck.
5:55 am
June 9, 2010
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Fair enough.
I was watching this Ted Talk this morning.
Might be interesting to you. this guy is asking the question of how can we use all this tech and information capability and bring it home to the local level. Stop relying on foreign built planned obsolescence products and build things ourselves that work and last a lifetime. I can see the pendulum swinging that way, or else.
1:54 pm
August 14, 2010
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I actually bought some new tongs when I first started working on my own about 20 years ago. I have made all my own tongs since then. It's not because I'm devoted to self-sufficiency, it's because I need them now, not next week. I'm not making tools to fill a spot in my collection or to have a 'complete' blacksmith shop. I'm making them to get a job done.
On the other hand, I've been doing this long enough that I'm very comfortable making tools; my shop is already pretty well-equipped; any tool I am going to need is probably special enough to make myself or can be modified from a tool I've already got.
8:17 pm
NWBA Member
April 22, 2010
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I probably qualify as an "old timer", in that I am rapidly approaching 60, and I have been forging stuff since the late 80's, and have been making my living from making things from metal since I quit my last real job in 78.
And I have always applied a cost/benefit analysis to whether or not to make things.
Now part of it is whether or not you are making a living at this, or just doing it as a hobby.
If you are making money in the shop, then, especially these days, you have to look at money in every decision.
One of my ex-employees was over the other day, paying me to run some parts on my angle rolls, and he told me that he absolutely MUST make a hundred bucks for every hour he spends in the shop. He has several kids, a mortgage, and he cant just diddle around- if he isnt being paid, he is paying.
So he doesnt spend a day making a tool that he can buy for 35 bucks.
I find that Grant's tongs are so much better than anything I could make, in terms of efficiency of time spent, and quality, that I havent ever made a pair of tongs. On the other hand, I have made a fair amount of hammer tooling, because while I had some success in talking Grant into making some of my ideas for tooling, he would take six months or a year to get around to it. And now, of course, he will take even longer...
But to me, making your own hossfeld style bender is an exercise in foolishness- a new one is only $800 bucks, and it is made from better quality steel, heat treated, with machining as needed, accurately and properly. I have known a couple of guys who built their own, and six months later, bought a real one. If you are doing any paying work, a real hossfeld can often pay for itself in one day. Mine has paid for itself a thousand times over, in the thirty years I have owned it.
On the other hand, my homemade treadle hammer works great, and was worth building. I have built a lot of accessory parts for tools as well- outfeed tables for saws, the water table for the plasma cutter, things like that.
Used industrial machines, however, are so cheap right now compared to what it would cost to build one, that I cant see making your own bandsaw or big disc sander- its just not cost effective.
I am totally unprepared to talk about what makes sense for someone with a real job who just putters on weekends, though- to me, it has made complete economic sense on several occasions to buy a brand new ten thousand dollar tool, but no sense at all to spend a day making a ten dollar tool.
8:45 pm
NWBA Member
October 29, 2010
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My rule of thumb is, to be always ready to buy something, if you think you will need it in the future. I'm always on the lookout for something I don't have (or need at the time) and or want. Especially if it is used, good and cheap, especially cheap.
Because when you are looking for it, when you need it, it is always more expensive!
If you pick it up cheap, you can buy two tools, you don't need! As you look for a bigger shop.
1:55 am
June 24, 2010
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My hobby is metalwork because that's what I like doing, and making tools is metalwork. So time I spend making tools isn't a cost. And if I spend $20 in materials and propane making a $10 tool, well, I would have used the materials and propane anyway, to make something else.
Of course it's different if I'm in a hurry to finish a project for some reason, if if I can't make a tool that's good enough not to frustrate me using it, or if I just don't feel like making one.
4:43 am
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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see below!~
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
4:52 am
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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I have Grant to thank for my tong-making ability. 10 or 15 years ago guys would stand in line to pay him 25$ each for his lightweight 14" tongs. At the time, he didn't make the new style which are probably closer to 20" and considerably heavier.
I thought at the time how a beginner like me would spring the jaws from one errant blow because there was not enough material in there.
Moral of the story- if you think you can do something better- do it! Innovate! Vise Grips are the perfect example.
I could care less if I make money on them. TUITION is payed in time and money spent getting the process down. The skills gained are priceless :nerd:.
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
5:48 am
September 7, 2010
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I could not agree more on what Reis said, however I strongly believe that the tool collecting addiction is just that, an adiction and I have it bad so I can attest to the fact that just because you can buy it does'nt mean you should.
Said of course with respect to all.
Ian
12:00 am
June 16, 2010
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Speaking from the point of view from an occasional weekend warrior, my time in the shop is so limited that I would rather spend it building something I want to build as opposed to building something that I can buy, and the one I buy will probably perform better that the one I build (mostly due to my lack of skills and equipment required to produce something that is better than what is commercially available).
If I had a lot more shop time available my opinion might be different, but right now my time is worth more to me than the few bucks to buy the right tool the first time that allows me to get building what I want.
6:27 am
NWBA Member
February 25, 2012
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I fully agree with the above ideas concerning cost/benefit and time/benefit analysis. But as a part-timer, often it's just a matter of a project catching my interest. I recently saw a guillotine fuller for sale on ebay. Decided to build one myself, used 1/2" plate and ended up with a superior tool (I believe) for about a quarter the price.
It's hard as a part time smith to slow down and learn things in the right order. If I could walk away from the day job I'd love to actually apprentice. Even then, it would be hard to choose between someone like Rashelle who is dedicated to traditional methods, someone like Larry who builds impressive machines, or someone like Ries who has lots of "dumb" ideas.
5:54 pm
May 27, 2010
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I agree with all that's been said. When I started in '72 there were still a lot of forging tools that people didn't want so I snatched them up, used them and some I reworked for what I needed. I'm still in the tool making syndrome. Need something, make it. Now when it comes to powered stuff that's different. I buy something that I know is right.
The other thing I see as a "trend" is the newbies scarfing up all they can on-line with out practicing what they've read. Plus they don't buy books or take classes. Maybe that's just a cheaper way for them at this stage in their lives. I keep seeing the same questions from them with out them taking the time and effort to just look it up.
My book sales are over 14,000 and has been steady since 2000 so someone is doing some reading. Wish I knew the demographic.
Randy McDaniel
http://www.drgnfly4g.com
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing." Oliver Wendell Holmes
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