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3:32 am
March 22, 2010
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Thanks for the excellent and well thought out reply!
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
5:26 am
August 29, 2010
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Dave,
What Larry said. Check out these burners, click Gibersom ceramic burner don’t miss the Burners page 2 at the bottom, they have a venturi mixer http://www.joppaglass.com/burn.....rners.html .
Bob
it's been fun, later!
9:11 am
March 26, 2010
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Grant;2740 wrote: It's amazing how impatient you get after a while though. Like: Geez, I been heating this dang thing for 60 seconds, seems like for ever. Need tongs less often too. I, of course consider that a down-side.
That pretty much sums it up Grant. I end up holding piddling little bits say a few inches long with my fingers, both in the coil, and at the power hammer :bomb:
9:31 am
March 26, 2010
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Dave Hammer;2727) wrote: I can also use a BBQ sized tank, which you could not with a humongus forge (smaller tanks freeze up when the propane is drawn quickly).
Good call Dave. Freezing tanks is a big issue.
Over here propane tanks are specified by the weight of gas they hold when full. The biggest is a 46kg. When running my three burner forge (somewhere around a cubic foot) at full tilt a 46kg bottle freezes when it gets below around half full. I would imagine a 40" long forge would need two or more large bottles manifolded together.
4:44 pm
August 29, 2010
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Guys,
I’ve gone back through this tread, you might say, if you were inclined to be kind, my posts are copious and longwinded, sorry. The worst of which may have left your eyes bleeding, please don’t send me your ophthalmologists bill. I fear my intent and meaning is lost in the babble. I will try to improve.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
10:56 pm
June 24, 2010
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Dave,
Do you have trouble with flux running off your ramable floor and getting at the kaowool? I'm using a floor like that (well, actually castable) in my forge now, and made the center lower than the sides. But maybe I didn't need to? Or maybe the thicker center section on yours means the middle shrinks more on curing, so the top ends up concave?
2:50 am
May 14, 2010
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Mike B.
I haven't done a lot of forge welding since early spring of 09 (just enough to verify the forges I have been working on get hot enough to weld). Around that time, I was making quite a few damascus billets and did get a LOT of flux buildup on the floor, but I don't remember it migrating over into the Kaowool. I put flux on the billets outside the forge.
I do remember though, that after I figured out how to get the maximum heat (very high pressure propane, metered with a needle valve), I was damaging the Kaowool with the heat.
Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd
12:08 am
August 29, 2010
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As you might gather I just can’t stand to see this thread languish. I’ve been digging around on the net again, this guy: http://www.cashenblades.com/in.....orges.html has some interesting ideas and recommends this forge design (don’t follow his link, it’s broke) : http://www.tzknives.com/gasforges.html it’s a interesting idea. The inner shell might make forge building an easier process. It’s a fairly small forge, I don’t think it would be hard to adapt to a ribbon burner and Zowada’s design looks like it could use the Gibersom burner, he would know, I would think. Check it out.
Bob
it's been fun, later!
3:01 pm
June 24, 2010
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Robert,
That design looks a lot like the igloo forge our gracious host was talking about a couple of years ago.
3:02 am
Mike B;2720 wrote: I'll second John's and Larry's advice. Building a forge isn't hard, though your first one can be frustrating until you get a sense of how to tune it and how to know when you've got it right. A big multi-burner forge will be more difficult to learn on.
I really think the best approach is to build a small, simple forge, get it running well, and see what you like and don't like about it. If you're like most smiths, you'll find it works fine for 90% of your work. If you ultimately decide that you need a bigger forge, build one. You'll probably still use the small one for most of your work, and it will use a lot less propane.
Amen...12 x12 pipe. 3" kaowool, hard brick on the botton, a 2.5" sq x 8" ribbon burner ( 2 rows of holes spaced an inch apart) will weld all day with little use of gas. less is best.
je
3:34 am
JNewman;2726 wrote: Come on David you just wanted to show off that induction heater again and gloat:stomp:
Yeah, no kidding...smart ass! 🙂
I did the math... it costs me about $250.per mo in the winter, less in the summer, to run my nat gas forges, which also heat the shop better than my hang down gas heater.
It would take awhile to make up the difference in $. That being said, the efficiency factor of an induction forge is incredible, if, like Grant, I did some sort of production work requiring the same heat consistently. Since my work is varied, the induction forge would probably be a luxury. Environmentally, it makes total sense, but for me at this juncture, it simply does not pencil out.
Anyone remember "Rumpole of the Bailey" an English sitcom of the 80's starring Leo kern, about a barrister and his wife "Hilda", "she-who-must-be-obeyed"? My wife writes the checks and at any given time, I have no idea how much $ is in the Ironwerks account...by choice. I'm pretty good at sliding/justifying equipment past the warden, but 4-5 g's w/o justification may be a stretch... I know...lie like hell, hope for the best. 🙂
JE
4:52 am
March 18, 2010
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Hard not to sound like a salesman when I'm talking about induction, so bear with me.
If it was just about fuel savings I might not even have one. But it's much more. It speeds up the work, goes easier and comes out better.
John, heat up a 10 foot bar in the forge to do a slit drift. You got a foot of heat and it sags like a wet noodle getting it to the anvil. I can take a 4" intense heat while standing at the anvil! I can take a new heat in a few seconds and not have to do hardly any straightening. I'll be done in a quarter the time and it will look better.
I don't walk to the forge, the forge is next to the anvil. Sometime I pull up a stool! I can take a heat when the forge isn't even running! Just flip a switch! I can have a part clamped in the vise and heat where I want and work it.
You never have to over heat because you can reheat so fast. And for the same reason, you never have to keep working it a little too long either.
The big misconception is that it's only good for production. Darryl Nelson says he can do an animal head in less than half the time with the induction - one off.
Getting just the heat you want, right where you want it, right now! What could be better?
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
6:15 am
March 22, 2010
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Grant;2813 wrote:
Getting just the heat you want, right where you want it, right now! What could be better?
Um.... getting one for free?
Someday...... I want one but I am too worried about keeping my rent paid at the moment...
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
7:06 am
March 18, 2010
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Pencil out, eh? One thing I've learned is that if you even need to do the math to see then it already makes sense. Seen it over and over. If I can see some use for a piece of equipment, then I'll probably use the hell out of it. Jeff Wester couldn't quite make the numbers work out for his CNC plasma table. He bought it any way and he says now they use it every day and don't know how they could get along without it. They even do a lot less hole drilling now. And instead of waiting for the cutting service, he has parts NOW. Same story with people who didn't really think they needed an iron worker. Entrepreneurs are risk-takers and need to be. "Penciling out" is for accountants and accountants make poor entrepreneurs.
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
9:58 am
March 26, 2010
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Grant;2813 wrote:
But it's much more
Gotta say you missed out a few "much much much"'s there Grant. The savings in fuel cost didn't really factor into my getting one. One of the major reasons was working conditions. My tiny workshop gets almost unworkable hot with a gas forge running and I was getting quite fatiqued from the heat at the end of a long day.
Also the ability to put a very controlled and intense heat JUST where you need it is amazing. Wonderful for very precise controlled bends or selective heat treating.
Case hardeing is one of it's speciallities
It's also SO useful having the ability to suddenly heat up a bit of steel without firing up a forge or filling the room with heat and noise from an oxy propane torch. Passing a piece of work back and forwards means you can easily heat up say 6-8" of 30mm round in a VERY quick time (mines the 25KVA machine) and re heats are a doodle.
Its also a LOT safer than an oxy propane torch, those intense flames can do some nasty burns. And a LOT LOT LOT safer than oxy acetylene, boy do the fire brigade just love those bombs on wheels
I've only had mine a few weeks and it's become indespensable. It wont replace a gas forge but boy does it give you options.
Also having a more powerful machine means I can get away with "looser coupling". Basically I can have a much larger coil and pass more amps through it. Putting a small bar in it means the efficiency of the induction of current into the work is reduced but because I'm passing a 1000 Amps through the coil I still get a lot of heat into the work. Having a larger coil means I can pass quite irregular shaped pieces of work backwards and forwards through the coil. (one reason I'm kicking myself for not getting the 35KVA machine)
Another advantage is it doesn't over heat the edges of thin work. Without getting geeky (and out of my depth) it only heats thin steel up to the non magnetic point. The thin stuff will get hotter but it relies on conduction from the thicker stuff that can be induced to get much much hotter
It's SO useful to be able to directly see the colour when working bronze. No constantly pulling work out of the forges or cleaning up puddles of molten metal.
John, I like to thing my work is relatively varied and this machine sure dovetails into my doings so nicely. I keep banging on about coal forges being redundant but for me gas forges, induction heating and an oxy propane torch (with hard firebricks) are a wonderfully complementary package
The more I use it the more its gets under my skin. I will be curious to look at the money numbers in a few months but to be honest even if my overall bills go UP, it's still a must have.
Nope, not a salesman for Grant ...... I didn't even buy it from him. BUt he sure did give me a lot of help sourcing one and technical info.
10:04 am
March 26, 2010
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Grant;2818 wrote: Same story with people who didn't really think they needed an iron worker. Entrepreneurs are risk-takers and need to be. "Penciling out" is for accountants and accountants make poor entrepreneurs.
I'm a million miles away from an entrepreneur (BTW George, the French do have a word for entrepreneurs). I'm not sure what I am other than a guy in a shed who loves messing with tools but I always wanted an ironworker just because I wanted one. I got a smallish one (40T) a few years back and can't believe how I manged with out one. If for no other reason than the ability to punch square or oval holes
Some times it's beyond bean counting, it's about increasing your options and the ability to do/ take on a wide range of work and to do things "in house" on the fly without disrupting the "flow" by getting stuff done elsewhere ....... and about a passion for working metals.
5:17 pm
March 18, 2010
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entrepreneur: a person who organizes and manages any enterprise, esp. a business, usually with considerable initiative and risk.
Like it or not you are one.!
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
8:00 pm
May 22, 2010
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I'd like to offer my 2 copper on what I have learned about owning a Ribbon burner Forge. I have a Behemoth of a Forge bought from Ron Wailes, I do believe that it was his experimental model that some of you probably remember? hehe, I have it now. Anyway, I changed it from what it was a bit. It was pretty un-manageable heat-wise with it's original setup.
I have found that the ribbon burner itself is quite versatile and I can tone my forge down to work 1/8" stock or crank it up to forge weld 4" stock by adjusting the air/fuel mixture without having to change out jets or anything.
The provided pictures will hopefully help with my explanations as my use of the english language is usually horrible, please forgive me.
In one of the pictures you can see a copper tube and another tube with a brass cap that's been drilled to .052. The copper tube was what the forge came with and ran the forge at under 1 lb of pressure ... no back pressure at all ... yes, the low pressure seemed nice but it ate through fuel like crazy and you can't really regulate fuel pressure very well set up like that .. sooo, I changed that part. I put a cap on it drilled out to .46 and now I run the forge comfortable at around 12 psi propane. The Air was the next problem. I had a problem regulating the air intake using the cover flap that comes on the blower (OCP's 112 CFM model) ... so as you can see in another picture, I installed a stopper / choke directly on the 2" piping going to the burner ... Now i can adjust my air and fuel easily. Fuel efficiency is awesome now that I put that Orifice on it.
The Forge is roughly 19" long with a 6" opening all the way through using a ribbon burner at 2" wide x 8" long.
On a side note for orifice size:
I've since seen Mike Neely's forge and played on it and he set his up (Tapped the feeder tube with a 1/4-28 tap) to use a .025 wire feed tip for welders, that way if he wants to adjust, he can adjust the amount of fuel entering the orifice size on the fly by taking the .025 tip off and changing it for any of the other tips sizes available for wire feeds.
I hope that made sense?
Brad Roland :hot:
8:51 pm
david hyde;2820 wrote: I'm a million miles away from an entrepreneur (BTW George, the French do have a word for entrepreneurs). I'm not sure what I am other than a guy in a shed who loves messing with tools but I always wanted an ironworker just because I wanted one. I got a smallish one (40T) a few years back and can't believe how I manged with out one. If for no other reason than the ability to punch square or oval holes
Some times it's beyond bean counting, it's about increasing your options and the ability to do/ take on a wide range of work and to do things "in house" on the fly without disrupting the "flow" by getting stuff done elsewhere ....... and about a passion for working metals.
Ouch! You inductioneer smiths are tough. Can you loan me 4 g's? Grant, how about a lease/option program? How about a loaner? 🙂
JE
8:53 pm
Brad Roland;2840 wrote: I'd like to offer my 2 copper on what I have learned about owning a Ribbon burner Forge. I have a Behemoth of a Forge bought from Ron Wailes, I do believe that it was his experimental model that some of you probably remember? hehe, I have it now. Anyway, I changed it from what it was a bit. It was pretty un-manageable heat-wise with it's original setup.
I have found that the ribbon burner itself is quite versatile and I can tone my forge down to work 1/8" stock or crank it up to forge weld 4" stock by adjusting the air/fuel mixture without having to change out jets or anything.
The provided pictures will hopefully help with my explanations as my use of the english language is usually horrible, please forgive me.
In one of the pictures you can see a copper tube and another tube with a brass cap that's been drilled to .052. The copper tube was what the forge came with and ran the forge at under 1 lb of pressure ... no back pressure at all ... yes, the low pressure seemed nice but it ate through fuel like crazy and you can't really regulate fuel pressure very well set up like that .. sooo, I changed that part. I put a cap on it drilled out to .46 and now I run the forge comfortable at around 12 psi propane. The Air was the next problem. I had a problem regulating the air intake using the cover flap that comes on the blower (OCP's 112 CFM model) ... so as you can see in another picture, I installed a stopper / choke directly on the 2" piping going to the burner ... Now i can adjust my air and fuel easily. Fuel efficiency is awesome now that I put that Orifice on it.
The Forge is roughly 19" long with a 6" opening all the way through using a ribbon burner at 2" wide x 8" long.
On a side note for orifice size:
I've since seen Mike Neely's forge and played on it and he set his up (Tapped the feeder tube with a 1/4-28 tap) to use a .025 wire feed tip for welders, that way if he wants to adjust, he can adjust the amount of fuel entering the orifice size on the fly by taking the .025 tip off and changing it for any of the other tips sizes available for wire feeds.I hope that made sense?
Brad,
Using a gate valve in the air line will give you much better flow control.
John
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