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12:09 am
December 12, 2010
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I have a NC one burner forge. I have tried and tried and tried to forge weld two seperate pieces of steel with little or no success. I have tried different sizes of steel, and different ways to forge weld. I believe that the scarf is correct and have tried different types of scarf. I have tried with no flux, just wire brushing, with Borax flux, with e-z weld, with borax and e-z weld, fluxing instantly after wire brushing, and most recently with 1/2" square steel with no success. I have tried long soaks, short soaks, heating the steel up to forge welding heat before fluxing, I have wire brushed after a short heat and fluxed then, wire brushed again, and refluxed. I have successfully forged welded prior but it was with a coal forge, and a few times with a two burner gas forge. One thought is that after the first attempt, the metal becomes contaminated and becomes more difficult with just wire brushing. So, I have wire wheeled the scarf with an electric wire wheel. I have rasped the scarfs also. My forge seems to get hot enough but I don't know how hot it gets. I do get the glass looking flux, the bubbling of the flux so feel the forge is getting hot, and I get the crusty buildup if left to long. I have tried tender hammer blows and more forceful blows. Others have watch me and said it's not the force of the blows. I have watched many others and don't feel my issue is the force of the hammer blows. Since I can't use a coal forge in my area, I'm committed to finding a consistent method to forge weld two separate pieces together. My sense after using a coal forge, and seeing how white hot the steel gets, I feel the gas forge is just not reaching that last final temperature level that is needed. This may be just fishing for an answer also. I know some will respond with "they can forge with a yellow heat, and no flux", but I have never seen this and I have been to several classes and conferences. H E L P.
12:21 am
March 22, 2010
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My suggestion would be visit a friends shop who has forge welded in there gas forge and duplicate your process and verify your method, if you can do it in there forge then you have your answer. Another thing would be to locate a pyrometer and check your temps
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
12:32 am
November 8, 2010
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Hi Dave!
How far away is your anvil from your forge? I was having trouble the other day and the difference between success and failure was one step of distance.
I've found that if the pieces won't stick in the fire then they're probably not going to stick when taken out. Try touching the pieces together to see if they'll stick.
And finally the last thing I can think of is an oxidizing environment which makes it hard to weld and usually results in crummy welds.
Not really familiar with NC's rigs, but try running it wide open to heat it up and before you put the clean, scarfed pieces in to the fire choke it a little to promote a reducing atmosphere.
Oxidation is a joiner's worst enemy :p
Hope that helps!
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12:42 am
December 12, 2010
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Thanks JimB: I turn around, no steps, to go from the forge to the anvil. I usually count to 5 when taking the steel out of the forge so I try to get the pieces laid on the anvil and my first hammer blow around 5 seconds. You brought up a good issue and that could be my forge has to much air being pulled into the forge box and causing to much scale. I don't believe there is any adjustments in my NC forge dealing with air intake, but I will look at it and see if there is anything I can do to reduce some of the air.
1:01 am
June 24, 2010
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If you can get the piece to spark, your forge is almost certainly hot enough. If you can't, the heat is probably marginal (or worse). It's possible to weld below a sparking heat, but not too much below. Of course, you don't want to heat the piece above the point where you first see a few sparks, either.
Oh, and have you tried a faggot weld? My gas forge doesn't get quite hot enough to do dropped tongs welds consistently, but I can faggot weld in it pretty reliably. I think this is because I don't lose time getting the pieces aligned, and because the weld surfaces don't cool as fast if they're already in contact when you pull them from the forge.
1:08 am
November 8, 2010
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I'm reading that those single burner forges only reach 2350F which isn't hot enough to weld.
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1:25 am
June 10, 2010
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I had the same problem with my forge, just could get it to work, then my teenage kid came out and forged welded up a bunch of stuff and left me standing there scratching head. So I tried it again and it still didn't work, I realized then and there it was the forge. Joking aside i have a hard time forge welding in my single burner forge, the kid had no problem. What I ended up doing was cranking up the pressure and choking it a bit so I had a reducing flame, then I get about 70% of my welds far from perfect, I guess I'm missing something on technique, but I'm reasonably competent welding with a coal fire.
1:26 am
December 12, 2010
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JimB and MikeB: My forge definitely doesn't get to the sparking heat. I haven't tried a faggot weld in a long time. I have been trying the dropped tong method without success and the one method I want to be able to complete and succeed on a regular basis. I have rehearsed my movements so I can get the pieces from the fire to the anvil and my first hammer blow close to 5 seconds, maybe 7 sec. I know that if the pieces move or I don't get alignment in one movement, I'm not going to get the weld.
4:36 am
NWBA Member
June 8, 2010
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My experience welding in a gas forge is this... You apply your flux at a cherry red heat, throw it in the forge... wait until the flux starts running... take it out and hit it! Should be tiny taps to get the ends of the scarf welded... then back in the forge heat again and hammer harder and finish the weld... I never could do a drop of the tongs weld in a gas forge... Just doesn't get hot enough... Now, maybe with a ribbon burner or a blower might get hot enough... the problem might be too much scale... propane just does that... Good luck
6:59 am
NWBA Member
April 19, 2010
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I'm not a "real" blacksmith,but I forge welded bar shoes for many years in a one burner forge in my traveling horseshoers rig.. The one time I couldn't was when KO board(or what ever brand it was) became burned out and I poured castable refractory in floor of forge. I had to chip the darn stuff out and replace with KO board. I always covered all the holes I could with fire brick to keep heat in. I switched to propane from coal for my traveling rig after 10 years and used propane for 14 more years and forge welded zillions of bar shoes.Can be done,Can be done.........
1:55 pm
September 6, 2010
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Hi I forge weld all the time in single burner forges and this Is my sugjestion. You need a air chock so you can get a fuel rich enviermernt in the forge. You can tell when it is fuel rich becouse you will have blueish flames cuming out the opening of the forge. Sum call this dragons breath. Next add your flux at red heat and then slowlly up to temp. When your flux starts dancing around on the meatel and there are no more shadows in the meatal and everything looks wet and stckey then your ready to weld. Start at one edge and with medium blows that overlap tapp tward the other edge. That will force out your flux. You want to use cleen pieces with no scale and oxegen free envierment in the forge.You can forge weld in a gas forge at lower temp if you can control the air fruel mix . Hope this helps
Steve
2:18 pm
Dave you probably could use a solid fuel fire in your area if you try coke. a side draft forge helps.
cyclon air scrubbers are common in other nations and in most other industry here in the states.
simple requires a fan but allows operation of a forge in the city (probably even with coal but why risk the added pollution the planet doesn't need it.
Coke is available. is more effort but is.. well it's coke.
At least we can mention that here.
2:59 pm
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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I've used small pieces of coke or coal to scavenge oxygen out of the forge- helps reduce scale. Also make sure you flux before you get to a scaling heat. I heat the piece up just enough to get the flux to stick- could be at a black heat, then back in.
Choking the air back does enrich the mix (less O2) but doesn't seem to get as hot as when they run lean.
For some reason I've had better luck with Sure-Weld (the red stuff) than straight borax. It could be the added iron filings.
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
10:28 pm
June 24, 2010
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If you put a choke on a gas forge, you're reducing the theoretical maximum amount of heat it can make. Just like with an engine, the real limiting factor is how much air you can get into it. Up to a point, of course -- it's possible to push in more gas and air than can burn inside the forge. Then more air (and gas) just makes more dragon's breath.
On my forge (a Reil-style one burner), I added a needle valve and a gas line that dumps extra propane into the burner inlet. This lets me adjust the mixture without reducing airflow. (On my forge, the orifice is fed from a cross tube; I just replaced the cap on the far end of the tube with a needle valve. A piece of 1/4" soft copper connects to the valve and ends just inside the burner bell.)
11:11 pm
December 12, 2010
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On my one burner NC forge, I covered half of the air intake area hoping to reduce the amount of air and scale. I'm not sure if the opened half just sucked in more air and ultimately I got the same amount of air? But, I went ahead and tried the drop tong method. As suggested, I fluxed at a red heat. I got the glassy look and when it started to bubble, I attempted the weld. No luck. The forge seem to take longer to heat and the period from fluxing to bubbling seem to be longer. I could see a blue flame inside the forge but still had an orange dragons breath. Does the bubbling of the flux mean I'm at welding heat or should I wait longer? If I wait to long, it starts to crust up and that's no good. Can you feel my PAIN? Any other suggestion?
11:24 pm
June 10, 2010
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Dave;8972 wrote: On my one burner NC forge, I covered half of the air intake area hoping to reduce the amount of air and scale. I'm not sure if the opened half just sucked in more air and ultimately I got the same amount of air? But, I went ahead and tried the drop tong method. As suggested, I fluxed at a red heat. I got the glassy look and when it started to bubble, I attempted the weld. No luck. The forge seem to take longer to heat and the period from fluxing to bubbling seem to be longer. I could see a blue flame inside the forge but still had an orange dragons breath. Does the bubbling of the flux mean I'm at welding heat or should I wait longer? If I wait to long, it starts to crust up and that's no good. Can you feel my PAIN? Any other suggestion?
I'm basically doing the same thing by upping the pressure and choking the air. Increased pressure actually pulls in more air, the choke damps that back and I adjust for dragons breath. I'm using the Derry Cook burner as well with some of the Ron Reil modifications. I do use a smaller orifice but run at higher pressures. It solves a number of problems at my altitude.
1:39 am
June 10, 2010
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I'm not sure how I did that I meant to quote Mike B not Dave I didn't even notice Dave's post, till just now.
Dave, I'm not sure with the NC forge but with mine it doesn't take a lot to make a big change in how the forge runs.
1:42 am
December 12, 2010
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Since my NC forge has it's limits, and at this point, after using other two burner forges and realizing they get a lot hotter, my question is which two burner forge would be good for forge welding. I definitely do not have the time to build my own forge and I'm willing to wait for the one that can do the job. All the manufacturers make wonderful claims about their forges, like Chile, Diamondback, Mankel, NC, and Forgemaster, etc. Which one will really do the job for a drop tong forge welding with the least amount of scale. Again, no coke or coal, forges allowed. I wish I could use a coke forge, but those days are gone around my area. Unless someone can see something through all my comments that I'm doing wrong, it must be partly the forge. I will try a faggot weld on Friday. What is it about gas forges that are the problem when it comes to forge welding. I took a class and used a forgemaster two burner forge and had problems with forge welding. I wasn't alone in this situation. Do gas forges just not get hot enough, or build to much scale? I guess it's true, no pain, no gain.
2:17 am
NWBA Member
July 9, 2010
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Many folks weld in simple homemade propane fired forges everyday. Didn't you say that your son successfully forge welded in your set up without any problems? What did he do that is different from what you are doing?
My son is the Blacksmith
2:38 am
August 2, 2010
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Dave, Have you talked to anyone at NC Tool about your welding problem? They may be able to help.
For what it's worth I always felt that their forges run kind of rich anyway (which helps them start so easily). Choking may not be your answer. If you do feel you need to restrict the air intake you probably should use a plate or washer type device to avoid screwing up the air flow into the burner tube rather than just taping off a portion.
I just did four forge welds this evening in my ragged little freon can forge using one of my PNB atmospheric burners at about ten psi by the Goss regulator's guage. I used regular borax as the flux. I needed to make a fish gig, the IMD item for our group's meeting this weekend. There are three faggot welds, two at the tips and one where the 3/8" square parent stock is doubled and welded and then hammered round for the shaft. There is another weld where the tapered tube and that shaft meet- I'm not quite sure what to call that one which was done in a v block. The little furnace took the material to a lemon yellow heat (under flourescent lamps) without excessive scaling. (this is the same type furnace as the ones used in the Memphis Abana teaching tent) I'll add a couple of pictures of the cooled but not wire brushed gig so you can see how it looked from the furnace. Steve G
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