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2:50 am
May 14, 2010
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I suggest you try adding a good needle valve (like an Alcon brand) just before the burner manifold and crank up the pressure as far as your regulator allows. Open the needle valve just a little to light the forge, then more to get the burn you want....
Grandkids and blacksmithing... Joy Joy Joy..............................YouTube Channel: djhammerd
3:04 am
December 12, 2010
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J Wilson: The son that had success forge welding was I believe posted by Daryl, not by me. But, I had the same question of what did the son do that was successful? I will try the needle value as suggested by an other post. But, this leads me back to my previous questions. What is it about gas forges that doesn't allow for forge welding for so many others. I don't believe I'm alone in this world with this issue. I don't believe coal/coke forges present the same issues. I have had some limited success with them, but that is because I can't use coal/coke forges in my area and need to be proficient with a gas forge. I have been so wrapped up in this drop tong welding that I have forgotten about the other types of welds with my forge.
4:26 am
June 10, 2010
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Dave;8982 wrote: J Wilson: The son that had success forge welding was I believe posted by Daryl, not by me. But, I had the same question of what did the son do that was successful? I will try the needle value as suggested by an other post. But, this leads me back to my previous questions. What is it about gas forges that doesn't allow for forge welding for so many others. I don't believe I'm alone in this world with this issue. I don't believe coal/coke forges present the same issues. I have had some limited success with them, but that is because I can't use coal/coke forges in my area and need to be proficient with a gas forge. I have been so wrapped up in this drop tong welding that I have forgotten about the other types of welds with my forge.
It was my kid, and he is now a computer nerd, and I rarely can get him in the shop any more, but he has always been good at forge welding, taught himself when he was 10. Coal or gas and if you use flux you are cheating, I think that he does and excellent job of setting up his weld and keeps things clean. The only pointer he ever gave me was that you want pieces the same colour. I'd love to get him to comment but I'm not even sure he could express his technique. My hope that although he is not showing any interest in blacksmithing now, that he will get back into it, he better because his only inheritance is going to be a big scrap pile and a bunch of blacksmithing tools. This still doesn't answer the problem of forge welding in a gas forge. So I'm following this thread with great interest.
4:51 am
December 12, 2010
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I'm very practical and things have to make sense to me. If in a coal/coke forge, you take the steel to white hot, at or just below sparking, then don't you need to do the same in a gas forge? The metal doesn't care what it is heated in, but it does want to be taken to a minimum heat level to join. I'm not saying people don't forge weld in a gas forge, but the metal must come to that minimum heat range to make a forge weld.
5:52 am
June 10, 2010
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I think that the higher the heat the better the weld. I have never tested a forge weld to know the breaking strenght, but have always assumed they would be less than and electric weld unless of course it was me doing the electric weld. But I believe that there can be some fusion at lower temperatures and a little help from a hammer. I remember Darrel (blank for a last name) who did the fancy pattern welding saying that copper based metals could be fused without heat and only using pressure and time.
6:00 am
NWBA Member
March 22, 2010
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I have forge welded damascus billets in just about every type of forge out there and failures always come back to oxidation of the steel. Temperature can play a part in making it easier but an oxygen free atmosphere or environment is more important. That is why we use a flux, not only in forge welding but virtually all welding and soldering processes. It is possible to forge weld well below 2000 degrees if the conditions are right (oxygen free vacuum), in fact its done all the time in hot isostatic presses.
My thought is that your forge is burning too much on the lean side or oxidizing. If you do not have a 3-4" flame out the door then it is going to be an oxidizing flame, meaning there is ample amounts of oxygen inside the forge to burn all the fuel. With the flame coming out the door there is excess fuel which must flow out of the forge to burn, meaning there is no oxygen left in the forge. Also I prefer to flux as soon as the piece show a dull red color, so the flux has an opportunity to coat and protect the steel from oxidizing before scaling begins. A positive, can do attitude always helps also.
Tom
2:11 pm
"Again, no coke or coal, forges allowed. I wish I could use a coke forge, but those days are gone around my area."
could you explain what prevents you using coke? there really may be a pretty easy way around it. Coal has given a real bad name to the"blacksmoke ally" but coke is so much cleaner there could be opportunity.
http://www.dustcollectorexpert.....m/cyclone/
http://www.industrialairsoluti.....clones.htm
Hereford built their own cyclone filter for 24 forges.
I used a smaller one in the netherlands in a smithy using PETR coke. that's some real rubbish and real smoky and the netherlands are not into smoky pollution.
Just saying there really might be another option . price of building cyclone vrs cost of gas forge... bet they are pretty similar.but unsure cause I never tried.
"I think that the higher the heat the better the weld. I have never tested a forge weld to know the breaking strenght, but have always assumed they would be less than and electric weld unless of course it was me doing the electric weld. "
Higher heats damages higher carbon steels. which do weld at lower temperatures anyway.
low carbons can take a real high heat so fire weld Wrought at snowball white and higher carbons in the reds
a Good fire weld is better than an electric weld because the HAZ is removed by hammer refining the metal.
John Turkingon is rightly proud that when he handed a sample of a piece of fire welded bar to a X ray inspector of welding the inspector couldn't find the weld.
2:56 pm
December 12, 2010
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The reason for "no coal/coke forges" is here in California we have a governmental organization called the AQMD. They rule over basically what goes into the atmosphere. They told me that coal/coke is not approved in my area since there is an alternative method, gas forging, available to me. I live in a brush area also, and the smell of smoke in the summer time would cause 911 calls to the Fire Dept and cause them to come to my house whenever I 'd start up the forge. I do think that my forge air intake needs adjustment.
3:08 pm
do they know that there is cyclone technology available? they sometime get the idea when presented to them.to say that gas forges are available is not really playing fair but then the organisations have done little to keep ahead of the regulators.try mentioning that propane is highly flammable where as the pile of coke is pretty hard to get alight;)
Shame some one let them think that Gas can replace solid fuel . and not take them to task for it.
3:12 pm
March 22, 2010
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Tom Ferry;8988 wrote: A positive, can do attitude always helps also.
Tom
I read that as " I am going to make this $#%^&^$ thing stick if its the last %@#$ I ever do!!"
Whatever you are, be a good one.
Abraham Lincoln
3:23 pm
June 10, 2010
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Larry L;8996 wrote: I read that as " I am going to make this $#%^&^$ thing stick if its the last %@#$ I ever do!!"
I think it is absolute confidence that makes a good weld.
But I'm more of the " I am going to make this $#%^&^$ thing stick if its the last %@#$ I ever do!!" crowd.
3:29 pm
NWBA Member
November 8, 2010
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jack frost;8994 wrote: do they know that there is cyclone technology available?
Jack- with your accent you sound like the Dyson Vacuum guy! "Cyclonic Induction- cures all your ills":dance:
Being a city-dweller myself; I would love to have kept my coke forge. I bought it from a guy in rural Oregon that had completely restored the thing and had even gold leafed the 'Champion' logo on the blower. When I finally fired it up and was humming along, in burst a blacksmith from next door and after grabbing my shirt collar screamed "I had to smell that sh*t for 20 years- I'm about going to kill somebody!!- Don't do it here!!" I stood there motionless trying to figure out what could have made someone so ballistic. Then it was like 'oh yeah'- who other than a blacksmith would go postal over the smell of coke??! Too funny. I sold it soon after for 700 to a guy in vegas.
They only remember you when you SCREW UP~!!!
11:49 pm
December 12, 2010
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What is the range for mild steel to be welded? One previous post indicated that 2350 degrees just wouldn't cut it for a drop tong method. So, without melting everything at the top end there must be a heat range that mild steel should weld given all other factors are good.
1:45 am
May 13, 2010
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Daryl;8987 wrote: I think that the higher the heat the better the weld. I have never tested a forge weld to know the breaking strenght, but have always assumed they would be less than and electric weld unless of course it was me doing the electric weld. But I believe that there can be some fusion at lower temperatures and a little help from a hammer. I remember Darrel (blank for a last name) who did the fancy pattern welding saying that copper based metals could be fused without heat and only using pressure and time.
While not quite to breaking I have tested forge welds pretty aggresively. Back when I only had a 50 lb hammer I had some tongs that I used to make that had a very large hinge joint and 40" long reins. I had to start with 1 1/4" round to get a big enough hinge but didn't want to draw it all out. So I practiced forge welding the 1/2" round rein stock to 1/2" x 5/8" rein stock. I then took a couple of these and bent them to a fairly tight 180 degree bend cold with the weld in the center of the bend, I then straightened the bars back out. I wanted to make sure none of them failed at the weld in service.
3:04 am
December 12, 2010
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JNewman: It sounds like you have been successful forge welding and that very much interests me. What kind of forge did you use? One burner, or two? When do you flux, and what kind of flux do you use. What type of welds did you use, lap welds, scarf welds, etc. I would really like to know the entire process that you go thru to get a weld. And, if you did a drop tong weld, what do you feel made yours successful. Please read my first post at the beginning of this thread and you will understand my desire to know why I'm not successful at drop tong welds in a one burner gas forge.
11:43 am
May 13, 2010
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Sorry Dave these were done in a coal forge. The only forge welds I have done out of my gas forge were faggot welds after the forge was good and hot after working in it after a few hours. That may be a good thing to try Dave, work on something else for an hour or two which will get your forge good and hot then try welding. If you start trying to weld out of a cold forge you are scaling up your work and raising your frustration level.
The process I used on these tongs was to scarf the ends of the two pieces. Because I was making a transition from rectangular to round I did not have to upset the ends before scarfing although I occasionally ended up thin at the weld and had to bump them back up again which was a pain. I then heated them up to red and used antiborax flux when I ran out of that I used some Swan flux. I found the commercial flux a little better for hiding the scarfs and helping them stick while doing a drop the tongs weld. I think it was the iron filiings which are horrible when doing basket twists. I then placed one pc on the bottom hammer die l set the other on top and hit it until it didn't feel "Squishy" I then put it back in the forge and took a second heat to finish the weld on the anvil. I notice you mention not hitting it too hard try hitting it harder, I know much is made of not hitting it too hard, but if you are not causing the the pieces to squirt appart or thining it too much it's not too hard. I was making that first setting blow on a power hammer hitting it hard by hand hammer standards.
I wonder if you could get away with a charcoal forge for when you have to do drop the tongs welds, you could keep a couple of hot dogs around in case the fire dept shows up. "Just my barbeque"
California has a big blacksmith association I would go to a couple of meetings and ask around. I am sure there are guys there who are welding out of commercial gas forges. Forge welding is one of those things watching someone is 100 times better than reading about it.
10:32 pm
March 18, 2010
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As many of you know I'm a contrarian and often do things "my" way. I found better success with forge welding in the hammer by putting the scarves together backward. Under the hammer, they have less tendency to squirt apart this way, plus the feather end is not laying on the cold anvil. Never seen anyone do it this way, just me, I guess. Anyone see an objection?
“There are painters who transform the sun into a yellow spot,
but then there are others who, with the help of their art and their intelligence,
transform a yellow spot into the sun.” ~ Pablo Picasso ~
12:09 am
December 12, 2010
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I will give it a try. I have seen this once before but I don't recall how successful it was.
I 'm not sure if the finish product you have on your drawing will turn out as you have pictured, but I do like easy setup and elimination of the more difficult scarf. Alignment looks easier also. Do you use a gas forge and if so, what kind, number of burners, flux etc. You knew these questions would be asked.
Thanks Grant, I will give it a go tomorrow.
12:18 am
May 13, 2010
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Grant;9074 wrote: As many of you know I'm a contrarian and often do things "my" way. I found better success with forge welding in the hammer by putting the scarves together backward. Under the hammer, they have less tendency to squirt apart this way, plus the feather end is not laying on the cold anvil. Never seen anyone do it this way, just me, I guess. Anyone see an objection?
I normally hook the ends of the scarfs in which both makes them contact first and I think it helps keep them from sliding. But I have accidentally done it "backwards" and had decent results. Next time I will have to try it on purpose, but I don't do a lot of forge welding anymore.
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